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VWinVT Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 1541 Location: North East Kingdom
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:04 am Post subject: On-board heat exchanger |
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This is the heat exchanger I am figuring to install on the underside of the van. It will heat water for showering and the sink via engine coolant when the motor is running.
I want the hot water supply to be from the onboard water tank AND have the option to use a "5 gallon pail". With shut off valves I ap want to be able to attach a hose, pre heat exchanger, and pull water from a pail or other container. This will be handy when we are camped for several days in same location where driving the van down the road to get water is more of a hassle than carrying a pail (it will give me fond memories of my days milking cows with bucket milkers... ).
I plan to use a diaphragm style pump, 1.2 gpm should allow the water to heat enough while giving enough pressure for showers in the shower tent along side the van.
This is my question...in order for this setup to work I need to,install the diaphragm pump AFTER the heat exchanger. Can these pumps, pump hot water? _________________ 1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
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chachi Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2003 Posts: 858 Location: the weeds
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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do you have a link for the exhanger? _________________ '74 transporter panel
'91 vanagon carat NAHT |
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hans j Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 2713 Location: Salt Lake City UT
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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I've seen the factory sink hooked up to a heat exchanger and it would pump out 180* water! I don't know how long it lasted, but it sure looked nice to have when it was 5*F outside...
I'm looking forward to what you come up with! _________________ 1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
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VWinVT Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 1541 Location: North East Kingdom
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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I will have to look a bit for the link for the heat exchanger. Danfromsyr sent me the link for this exchanger.
I have all the plumbing mapped out in my head and it will all work properly. I may need to call West Marine and ask them if the diaphragm pump can pump the water after it has been heated up. I suspect I will get hot water around 110*, so the stock water faucet should handle this well enough.
The system needs to be able to pull in outside water as well as from the onboard tank for hot water. The onboard tank will deplete quickly with a family of 4... _________________ 1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
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VWinVT Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 1541 Location: North East Kingdom
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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SCORE!!!
Finally had a chance to check out the Seaflo website to get the specs on the series 21 pump and the maximum recommended temperature for the pump is 140* F.
So , now I can proceed with my idea and mount the pump under the sink after the heat exchanger allowing me to add an additional water inlet for showers from a pail.
I will post the progress on the kitchen wall rust thread as I go. _________________ 1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
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jokeraus Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2015 Posts: 64 Location: Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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I would suggest a thermostatic mixing valve in your system to set a limit on water temperature. You will see over 110F.
https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-AM101C-Thermostat...xing+valve
I am planning a similar way to generate hot water using the engine coolant circuit.
Don't forget hosing rated for high temperature on the hot side. _________________ 88 Vanagon | Build Thread |
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VWinVT Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 1541 Location: North East Kingdom
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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jokeraus wrote: |
I would suggest a thermostatic mixing valve in your system to set a limit on water temperature. You will see over 110F.
https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-AM101C-Thermostat...xing+valve
I am planning a similar way to generate hot water using the engine coolant circuit.
Don't forget hosing rated for high temperature on the hot side. |
Thanks for the tip on the thermo valve...i have been unsure of what my water temps would be. I am thinking of using PEX on the hot side...but still poking around with this one. _________________ 1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
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chachi Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2003 Posts: 858 Location: the weeds
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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found the exchanger on amazon, what are you planning to store water in? _________________ '74 transporter panel
'91 vanagon carat NAHT |
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MidwestDrifter Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2012 Posts: 769 Location: Kicking Around Australia
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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Those heat exchangers can easily heat the water to coolant temps (200F+). That will nuke your pump unless you have a tempering valve (thermostatic mixing valve). You should have one of these anyways so you don't scald yourself.
You must use tubing rated for these temps on both sides of the exchanger. Pex can handle this temperature, so it is fine. There are also nylon reinforced vinyl tubing made for this temp. _________________ 2004 Dodge/Mercedes Sprinter (Custom Camper)
2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
My Current Build | http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41215 |
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VWinVT Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 1541 Location: North East Kingdom
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:07 am Post subject: Re: On board heat exchanger |
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MidwestDrifter wrote: |
Those heat exchangers can easily heat the water to coolant temps (200F+). That will nuke your pump unless you have a tempering valve (thermostatic mixing valve). You should have one of these anyways so you don't scald yourself.
You must use tubing rated for these temps on both sides of the exchanger. Pex can handle this temperature, so it is fine. There are also nylon reinforced vinyl tubing made for this temp. |
I found a small mechanical mixing valve...its a Moen commercial valve...they rin about $40. I think the pex is the way to go as I will be ale to find all the fittings I need.
As for water storage...i will use a plastic collapsible 5 gallon water container. I am also going utilize the drain on the stock water tank to utilize the onboard water tank if needed. I will attach a bose to the drain opening and run it to the pump.
As for the pump, I have now decided on a different location for the exchanger and the pump. The pump will be located on the cold side of the exchanger. I will locate them behind the PS tail light. The Pex inlet and outlet lines will run along the rear wall of engine compartment and be mounted behind the DS rear wheel. I will not be using the city water port...i have decided to keep it simple. 😊 _________________ 1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:02 am Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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You can buy an entire integrated hot water solution from Coleman for $250 which will work with engine off, portable, easily serviced, and doesn't add complexity to your engine, as a counterpoint _________________ .ssS! |
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VWinVT Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 1541 Location: North East Kingdom
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:49 am Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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Abscate wrote: |
You can buy an entire integrated hot water solution from Coleman for $250 which will work with engine off, portable, easily serviced, and doesn't add complexity to your engine, as a counterpoint |
Ya, I have pondered this type of solution. But it just one more thing to pack, carry and set up. This install may be a bit of a PIA, but once done I just turn the key and attach a hose and its done. And nothing to pack or unpack. The ZODI 3 gallon hand pump water tank is the other option i am keen on. _________________ 1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5680 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:12 am Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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I'm interested in seeing the heat exchanger idea work out.
Some thoughts/questions:
My understanding is the Vanagon cooling system is a pain to bleed as is, so you'll want to position it in such a way that bubbles won't get trapped in the exchanger or feed lines.
You'll also want a way to be able to drain the water out of it so it doesn't freeze in there in the winter time.
Is that exchanger in tended for home beer brewing use? Looks very similar to one I used for that. And very different than another one I saw that was intended for use like you're doing.
Should be neat when done and a fun project just for the sake of a project.
But the Coleman heaters aren't that big and are pretty handy, and at a campout could be placed somewhere where others could access it if you wished. That is where I was exposed to one-a guy set his out in a common area at a smaller campout and allowed others to use it for dish washing or whatever.
And you can also choose to not have it around if you wanted to save space.
When I was prepping to camp at a place where the showers had been closed for the season, I looked at and considered the Coleman heaters, but ended up building a thermosyphon heater instead. Cost me about $30. It heats water through a long copper pipe in the camp fire. Pulls water from the water container and returns it to the container. _________________ Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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jstar89crx Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2005 Posts: 156 Location: Bellingham WA
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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X2 on the water temp getting scalding hot. I have used smaller plate heat exchangers than that and ended up temps over 180F when connected to a TDI install and a 1.8T install. Both of mine the pump was on the cold side of the heat exchanger. I have used flexible water heater lines to come off of the exchanger to handle the high temps before the mixing valve. Also, remember to winterize that exchanger every fall as you have to potential to lose all the engine coolant if that plate freezes and cracks. _________________ 86 Syncro, weekender carat interior, the rest is bone stock for now
SOLD:91 Westy, BEW TDI with VNT17 Turbo, water cooled intercooler, Malone Tune, taller 3rd and 4th. |
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VWinVT Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 1541 Location: North East Kingdom
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:19 am Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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i would love to see the types of mixing valves others have used. _________________ 1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
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jstar89crx Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2005 Posts: 156 Location: Bellingham WA
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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Just checked. I used a Sloan Mix- 60-A _________________ 86 Syncro, weekender carat interior, the rest is bone stock for now
SOLD:91 Westy, BEW TDI with VNT17 Turbo, water cooled intercooler, Malone Tune, taller 3rd and 4th. |
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VWinVT Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013 Posts: 1541 Location: North East Kingdom
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:33 am Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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jstar89crx wrote: |
Just checked. I used a Sloan Mix- 60-A |
NICE! that is the same design as the MOEN i was looking at. Does it easily get the water cool enough? I was concerned it would not be 'robust' enough to do the job.
This is the one i was looking at.
http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetdepot/ProductDeta...swodAUcLiA _________________ 1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
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spitsnrovers Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2005 Posts: 924 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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That is an interesting heat exchanger.
Along those lines my version of your idea is here:
http://www.griffco.ca/interest/vw/vwmods.htm
Scroll down till you see the Shower entry. I am now working on the Fridge Water Heater mod. I have proven it in the workshop so will start installing it in February.
Yes, the water does get hot! But running it from the onboard tank via the sink plumbing, plus another 8 feet of hose it cools somewhat. And we use it in short bursts rather than continuous as you might at home with the luxury of continuous hot water.
Also, I have used it quite a few years, and have never had problems with needing to bleed the engine cooling system, nor problems with hot water and pumps and hoses. _________________ '88 VW Westfalia
'75 Triumph Spitfire 1500 |
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jstar89crx Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2005 Posts: 156 Location: Bellingham WA
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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VWinVT wrote: |
jstar89crx wrote: |
Just checked. I used a Sloan Mix- 60-A |
NICE! that is the same design as the MOEN i was looking at. Does it easily get the water cool enough? I was concerned it would not be 'robust' enough to do the job. |
It had no trouble lowering the temp. The mechanical valves are a little limited compared to the thermostatically controlled ones but you can't beat the size of it. Setting it to a good water temperature for when the engine is up to temp seemed to work well. _________________ 86 Syncro, weekender carat interior, the rest is bone stock for now
SOLD:91 Westy, BEW TDI with VNT17 Turbo, water cooled intercooler, Malone Tune, taller 3rd and 4th. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: On-board heat exchanger |
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I've got a couple of heat exchangers from some 60 kW plasma things I used on a project a few years ago. If anyone wants them for this let me know.
I'm an hour from the VT border too
_________________ .ssS! |
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