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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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 Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:49 pm Post subject: Info for building my first engine |
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I keep reading and keep reading, but there is an endless amount of information on here.
I'm going to start building my first motor in the very near future, atleast I'd like to. I'm also talking to a shop near me to price out what they charge for one.
I'm starting with what appears, and I was told is a pretty decent AS21 case, it came from my grandfather in law who's pretty vw savy. He says the internals should also be in good condition too.
I'm pretty sure I want to build a 1915, my grandfather says go with the 1905 but I'm not sure either way.
Now here's where I'm stuck. There are an endless amount of combinations I could use after. I don't want to make crazy power, I just want more pep and I want it to be reliable. Obviously all the hard stuff will be outsourced, because I'm new to this and will get satisfaction out of learning the small things. I've ordered the rebuilding your 1600 book, probably going to order the hotrodding your vw book too.
I haven't set a precise budget yet, because I have no idea how to gauge what parts will cost because there are so many options but realistically I'm probably looking for under 3.5-4K. Any insight is appreciated. I keep searching but I just get more and more confused seeing the endless combos.
Last edited by Joshooalane on Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3460
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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Thats whats so beautiful about Type 1 VW engines. 900 Engine combos with supply easily accessible by anyone, and its pretty cheap. (If your building it yourself).
I would decide for sure on turbo or not. Usually when people say it how you phrased it, it translates to "I want a faster engine and have dreams of a turbo". But be honest, cause many people cant even finish a naturally aspirated build without "life getting in the way". And it never gets done.
For $3500 you can get a complete 1915 engine kit and make 120hp easily, and not even need to use the parts you have.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| jpaull wrote: |
Thats whats so beautiful about Type 1 VW engines. 900 Engine combos with supply easily accessible by anyone, and its pretty cheap. (If your building it yourself).
I would decide for sure on turbo or not. Usually when people say it how you phrased it, it translates to "I want a faster engine and have dreams of a turbo". But be honest, cause many people cant even finish a naturally aspirated build without "life getting in the way". And it never gets done.
For $3500 you can get a complete 1915 engine kit and make 120hp easily, and not even need to use the parts you have. |
I will turbo it eventually, idk when but it's going to happen. I've seen a few 1915 kits ranging from cbs engine builder and the scat kit but im not sure of mass produced is what I want. Don't get me wrong I'd love to have 120hp but will that give me the necessary internals to run a mile turbo later? 8-12psi probably not much more. |
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Boolean
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012
Posts: 1712
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| Joshooalane wrote: |
I'm pretty sure I want to build a 1915, my grandfather says go with the 1905 but I'm not sure either way. I know I want a strong bottom end, I'd like to turbo it one day and don't see the point in having to go back through it but I could be doing this wrong.
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Good advice here:
"2 engines of similar displacement will have similar outputs. For example, a 1914 and 1905 are almost the same thing. I see guys all the time say the 1905 will be "torquier" because it's a stroker, but that's bullocks. The 1905 may be a stroker, but the bore is smaller so it's not pushing as hard on the crank as the 1914 is, the result is 6s.
My advice (as always) is to bore the engine to 94s first, next get heads 2 steps better then you can afford, and if you have $ leftover get an 82mm crank. Do not bother with the in-between 74-80mm crankshafts, waste of $ IMO.
John
Aircooled.Net Inc."
_________________
I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| Boolean wrote: |
Good advice here:
"2 engines of similar displacement will have similar outputs. For example, a 1914 and 1905 are almost the same thing. I see guys all the time say the 1905 will be "torquier" because it's a stroker, but that's bullocks. The 1905 may be a stroker, but the bore is smaller so it's not pushing as hard on the crank as the 1914 is, the result is 6s.
My advice (as always) is to bore the engine to 94s first, next get heads 2 steps better then you can afford, and if you have $ leftover get an 82mm crank. Do not bother with the in-between 74-80mm crankshafts, waste of $ IMO.
John
Aircooled.Net Inc." |
I actually did read this during my research and I'm more for the 94s. Of course when it comes to heads I have no idea what to get, and then when it comes to interanals and odds and ends I'm stumped. I've never torn or built an engine before. I've done a head gasket before from reading which I thought was an impossible task. I've done all my own suspension work, some body stuff, wiring stuff on the bug and I'm confident I can tackle it, but I'm just missing the knowledge of what I need and what options are better/preferred. |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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The 90.5mm cylinders are nice and thick where as the 94mm cylinders are thin.
So there is that going for the 90.5X74 engine. It makes power at lower rpm's less wear, less heat, more dependability. The 90.5X74 goes together nice for a stroker, everything is standard but the crank and rods. It's a lot like my 1800cc type 1's below.
Really though the power will come out with DUAL Carbs! IDF or IDA or DRLA or some of the others too. Forget the turbo for now!
If you want torque then use stock valve sizes, If you want High Rev Horsepower use 40X35 Valve heads. (The 90.5 bore would be best with stock size valves, it would loose low end with big valves) But on a bug either head can be made to apply with the correct cam lift. Probably looking at something like a Webcam 163 or something similar. Some cams wear out, and wear out the case lifter bores and the lifters and need dual springs which wear things out too. This is why the Ratio Rocker cams are available. Something else to consider. But you can keep it simple and stick with single hd valve springs and a low lift cam and get more drivability.
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!
Last edited by Danwvw on Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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FeelthySanchez
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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Re: "I've never torn or built an engine before".
Believe that the ans is known here, but pls advise us:
WHY a turbo is even considered at this time?
Perhaps look-up member "modok" for some advice, as he's local.
_________________
| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| FeelthySanchez wrote: |
Re: "I've never torn or built an engine before".
Believe that the ans is known here, but pls advise us:
WHY a turbo is even considered at this time?
Perhaps look-up member "modok" for some advice, as he's local. |
My location is actually St. Louis I need to change it. Why a turbo? Because that's the dream, not necessarily a turbo bug but I'm in a spot where I either buy a third car for a daily or beef up and make my already daily more reliable, but deep down I want a turbo daily, and I want the experience of building and satisfaction of building boost haha. I want to keep it in mind while I build but I'm not gong for the turbo up front if that makes sense. |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
The 90.5mm cylinders are nice and thick where as the 94mm cylinders are thin.
So there is that going for the 90.5X74 engine. It makes power at lower rpm's less wear, less heat, more dependability. The 90.5X74 goes together nice for a stroker, everything is standard but the crank and rods. It's a lot like my 1800cc type 1's below.
Really though the power will come out with DUAL Carbs! IDF or IDA or DRLA or some of the others too. Forget the turbo for now!
If you want torque then use stock valve sizes, If you want High Rev Horsepower use 40X35 Valve heads. (The 90.5 bore would be best with stock size valves, it would loose low end with big valves) But on a bug either head can be made to apply with the correct cam lift. Probably looking at something like a Webcam 163 or something similar. Some cams wear out, and wear out the case lifter bores and the lifters and need dual springs which wear things out too. This is why the Ratio Rocker cams are available. Something else to consider. But you can keep it simple and stick with single hd valve springs and a low lift cam and get more drivability. |
This is a lot of great info, way better than reading endless combos. This is what I lack, the pros and cons of different set ups. For me I guess the problem is I don't have a precise end game like most people. Most people know where they want there torque or where they want to make their power, for me I'm not terribly concerned. I just want to have fun building and have fun driving haha. |
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FeelthySanchez
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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So, very little engine/mech experience.
Could you even handle adjusting the T1's valves?
Check my sigline for some details re the last "person" here whom "needed" a turbo from day 1. On a good day, he might correctly assemble a bologna sandwich.
_________________
| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| FeelthySanchez wrote: |
So, very little engine/mech experience.
Could you even handle adjusting the T1's valves?
Check my sigline for some details re the last "person" here whom "needed" a turbo from day 1. On a good day, he might correctly assemble a bologna sandwich. |
I won't turbo it from day one, but I'd like to go ahead and build a stronger bottom end in the meantime? What's the harm in that? I'll admit I'm not very good at it, but yes I can adjust them. I figure if I'm asking for incite/info it's better to state what I what in the endstate. Most of the posts I read were missing information on budget, desired outcome, or what they wanted to do with it. I can read and can follow directions but the combination of parts is more knowledge and experience based, which I'm obviously lacking. |
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FeelthySanchez
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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Xlnt.
Continue learning about your new VW. Their unique maint issues may surprise one.
Have to suggest stifling the enthusiasm for 94s at this point - unless tinkering w/ the proposed new engine combo every 2 days somehow sounds appealing......
| Joshooalane wrote: |
| ..... I'll admit I'm not very good at it, but yes I can adjust them. ...... I can read and can follow directions but the combination of parts is more knowledge and experience based, which I'm obviously lacking. |
_________________
| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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gt1953
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13848
Location: White Mountains Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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Um Ok on the engine size. I do have to agree when the 1600cc engine is larger cc's it makes the car way more driveable. Now like Sanchez is hinting at after the after engine install here comes the maintenance side of the stock to performance engine. The performance engine may need more tuning more often but maybe not.
_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| FeelthySanchez wrote: |
Xlnt.
Continue learning about your new VW. Their unique maint issues may surprise one.
Have to suggest stifling the enthusiasm for 94s at this point - unless tinkering w/ the proposed new engine combo every 2 days somehow sounds appealing......
| Joshooalane wrote: |
| ..... I'll admit I'm not very good at it, but yes I can adjust them. ...... I can read and can follow directions but the combination of parts is more knowledge and experience based, which I'm obviously lacking. |
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I've had, been driving, and have been working on this one for the better part of three or so years. My engine can't keep up where I'm at, I'm 25 miles outside of the city and it's all interstate to get in. Where I was before it was 5-10 minutes to work daily and the occasional 2 hour road trip. Traffic is fast here and mine is slowly heading towards its last leg. I'm either going to build part of another engine and learn or pay the shop near me to do it, I don't see a point in building a stock motor if I want something faster, that may sound ridiculous to some but it makes the most sense to me. Perhaps this wasn't the place to ask for advice or guidance. I'll just talk to builder near me and I'll watch some YouTube videos so I can "handle adjusting the valves". Thanks for the info and advice. |
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FeelthySanchez
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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Do us all a favor here, mate: Just rebuild that tired ol' engine, COMPLETELY STOCK
_________________
| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| FeelthySanchez wrote: |
| Do us all a favor here, mate: Just rebuild that tired ol' engine, COMPLETELY STOCK |
Except that isn't going to meet my needs.... why would I put money into something if it won't meet my needs, if that's the case I'll just pay the shop near me to build a 1915, and I can build my tired 1600 in my spare time, which I'll probably end up doing anyways. But I'm still going to want insight on what combos or parts to put in my 1915. That's the entire point of this post. I literally read another one of your replies where another guy asked similar questions and was a "complete" novice and you were all for it. I have plenty of time, plenty of patience to do it right, but I don't have the base knowledge. I'm asking for insight I'm not asking for you to do it for me, research for me, or give me tricks and tips. As soon as you saw "turbo" you were turned off. Which btw I won't be buildng myself. I would however be purchasing a kit/having it installed by someone local. As for maintenance, I don't often do my own, I pay to get the valves adjusted so what, motors are finicky and the one I'm driving everyday isn't the one I want to mess up. Again thanks for your insight but you're not exactly being helpful, directing me towards any extra materials that might help my lack of knowledge. |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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Well, you got to buy a crankshaft anyhow because it's going to be a counterweighted 8 dowel crank that you will need to find a flywheel for or a local shop that can fix the old flywheel to have 8 dowels. 69mm Crank-74mm are the same price. And since your wanting 94's your looking at a 74X94 which would be a 2054cc then you can run the cb-super race 5.325" rods, the Panchito big valve heads, the the big chamber one,
94mm Cylinders with Hypereutectic pistons. I was thinking of just keeping everything stock (except cam) as far as the rest of the shortblock, as far as internals go but consider an external oil filter which you can do with a case modification at the machine shop and a full flow oil filter kit. In that AirCooled.Net link they build the engine with longer rods though! Not sure why? Yeah, you will get more top end that way and you need to buy a whole bunch of parts that way!
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
Well, you got to buy a crankshaft anyhow because it's going to be a counterweighted 8 dowel crank that you will need to find a flywheel for or a local shop that can fix the old flywheel to have 8 dowels. 69mm Crank-74mm are the same price. And since your wanting 94's your looking at a 74X94 which would be a 2054cc then you can run the cb-super race 5.325" rods, the Panchito.
94mm Cylinders with Hypereutectic pistons. I was thinking of just keeping every thing stock af far as the rest of the shortblock as far as internals go but consider external oil filter which you can do with a case modification at the machine shop and a full flow oil filter kit. In that AirCooled.Net link they build the engine with longer rods though! Not sure why? Yeah, you will get more top end that way and you need to buy a hole bunch of parts that way! |
I planned on buying a cw crankshaft, my grandfather said the oe German one in there should be in pretty good shape, but who knows. They are the same price, and please go easy because this is where I haven't a clue... with the larger crank comes adding clearance right? I'm not opposed to going bigger than a 1915, that's just what I've been looking for.
I guess I should break It down a little more,
I was looking at grabbing a set of 94 pistons and barrels, possibly a new set of nicer heads, I'll see what the shop says about my spare set and if they can do anything with them.
that's as far as I've gotten so far. I know it's not a lot. I keep looking at the options but as I've stated almost redundantly, its endless. |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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Oh, But! Are you in Luck!!!!!!! the 74mm crank clears! It clears a stock case! How about that!
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Joshooalane
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2014
Posts: 76
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Info for building my first engine |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| Oh, But! Are you in Luck!!!!!!! the 74mm crank clears! It clears a stock case! How about that! |
SEEEE THESE ARE THE THINGS I DON'T KNOW! I guess that's why my grandfather was pushing the 90.5x74!
alright alright, so what're the pro's and con's to doing that? I think I've been misleading, I'm not going to "build" the engine. I'd love to, but the shop is going to actually put the case and the components together. Maybe that's why I've been catching slack. I don't have the tools or precise measuring instruments for that. I do however want to have a say and be informed on what goes in it.
so we have
90.5x74
94x69
and now 94x74
I feel like this is starting to get on the large end though haha  |
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