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Swing Axle VS. IRS !! Beat this to death..
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drscope
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats it.
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veedubfreak59
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


Early cars have IRS, just NOT double jointed IRS


That's why I put IRS in quotes Smile
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Helfen
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veedubfreak59 wrote:
Quote:


Early cars have IRS, just NOT double jointed IRS


That's why I put IRS in quotes Smile


I guess I stated it incorrectly as I should have said " Early cars have IRS not just later cars with double jointed IRS.
I remember seeing old advertisements for early VW's with swing axles touting the superiority of Independent Rear suspension "IRS" over domestic's straight rear axle.
Here is another one; some people will call incorrectly call a VW engine case a block!
Or a gasoline engine a motor.
Or saying Barack Obama is black or African American....I'm sure his mother and grandparents on his mothers side would appreciate if alive!
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61SNRF
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helfen wrote:

Or a gasoline engine a motor.



I thought "motor" was German for "Engine"Laughing
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Helfen
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

61SNRF wrote:
Helfen wrote:

Or a gasoline engine a motor.



I thought "motor" was German for "Engine"Laughing


You are correct, but we speak English. If you have spoke German you will also know that the language is more non specific (unless when it comes to gender) than English.
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61SNRF
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helfen wrote:
61SNRF wrote:
Helfen wrote:

Or a gasoline engine a motor.



I thought "motor" was German for "Engine"Laughing


You are correct, but we speak English. If you have spoke German you will also know that the language is more non specific (unless when it comes to gender) than English.


But I thought "English" was a "Germanic" language... Confused
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages

...and does it not sound better to say..."America's Motorway's" than "America's Engineway's"?

Sorry Helfen, just had to. You can kick me now. Smile
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Helfen
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

61SNRF wrote:
Helfen wrote:
61SNRF wrote:
Helfen wrote:

Or a gasoline engine a motor.



I thought "motor" was German for "Engine"Laughing


You are correct, but we speak English. If you have spoke German you will also know that the language is more non specific (unless when it comes to gender) than English.


But I thought "English" was a "Germanic" language... Confused
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages

...and does it not sound better to say..."America's Motorway's" than "America's Engineway's"?

Sorry Helfen, just had to. You can kick me now. Smile


Your right again, the original English was German because the invaders of the British Isles were Germanic tribes ( Angles, Saxons and Jutes ) and they pushed the indigenous people ( Celts ) into Wales, Scotland. Today when you hear the words Anglo Saxons you think about the English people. I reality your talking about German tribes that invaded and rule England. That is also why Hitler didn't really want to fight England as he considered the English to be brothers. But the beauty of the English language today is it's composed of German, Latin, Greek, French, Scandinavian etc. Words and by the usage of those many different words you can describe thoughts in greater detail than any other language. Hence, we use the name Engine for internal and external combustion engines....I mean you wouldn't call a steam engine a steam motor would you? In German a steam engine is called a dampfmachine, not a dampfmotor...! see how vague and nondescript it can be.
This ability to describe things in greater detail is most likely the reason English is called the universal language...a example would be air traffic control to aircraft and communication is in English no matter where you go in the world. Another example would be India where there are hundreds, if not thousands of Indian dialects. When the English gave up India as a colony the Indians still used English to tie all it's peoples together....Indian law and government is all done in English and English law.
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neil68
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: motor Reply with quote

Def'n-MOTOR: a comparatively small and powerful engine, especially an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.
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Helfen
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: motor Reply with quote

neil68 wrote:
Def'n-MOTOR: a comparatively small and powerful engine, especially an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.



en·gine (njn)
n.
1.
a. A machine that converts energy into mechanical force or motion.
b. Such a machine distinguished from an electric, spring-driven, or hydraulic motor by its use of a fuel.
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drscope
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The swing axle/IRS and engine/motor arguments will never be solved or won.

Yes a swing axle is an Independant rear suspension. But the term IRS when relating to VW's really came into play with the introduction of the double jointed IRS rear axle set up.

Correct or not, when anyone refers to IRS in a bug, we know they mean an IRS double joint set up.

As for the engine/motor argument...It was Ford Motor company that built gasoline powered automobiles. Not Ford Engine company.

Its an engine except in German where it is a motor. But we are not supposed to refer to it as a motor in our German cars when speaking about them in english.

I'm one for using the proper terminology whenever possible. It really helps when people asking for help use the right terminology.

But these 2 subjects just need to be overlooked because in both circumstances there are plenty of examples to support both sides of the argument.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

60sunroof wrote:
I.R.S for off road and all around driving.

Swing for drag racing.


IRS for off-road? The last time I checked all buggies and bajas either had swing axles or wished they did.
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Helfen
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drscope wrote:
The swing axle/IRS and engine/motor arguments will never be solved or won.

Yes a swing axle is an Independant rear suspension. But the term IRS when relating to VW's really came into play with the introduction of the double jointed IRS rear axle set up.

Correct or not, when anyone refers to IRS in a bug, we know they mean an IRS double joint set up.

As for the engine/motor argument...It was Ford Motor company that built gasoline powered automobiles. Not Ford Engine company.

Its an engine except in German where it is a motor. But we are not supposed to refer to it as a motor in our German cars when speaking about them in english.

I'm one for using the proper terminology whenever possible. It really helps when people asking for help use the right terminology.

But these 2 subjects just need to be overlooked because in both circumstances there are plenty of examples to support both sides of the argument.


First, every German knows what your talking about when you say engine. I've got enough relatives and friends over there that will tell you English is the second language that almost everybody knows. Funny when speaking to friends from Germany that they always say engine in English.
I love these old advertisements of the 50's, apparently they knew they had IRS, but derscope, your a respected guy here by myself and others on this forum so don't you think it's time to correct the wrong here? When the water boxer engine came out did we stop calling air cooled engines boxers? No of course not. Why follow what some idiot started back 1968 (A/T) 1969 ? People look up to you so do what's the right thing to do.
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drscope
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helfen, I agree with you! Its just that these two arguments will only be solved after the slammed and narrowed versus stock argument gets solved.

Some battles will just never be won. So sometimes its better to just grit your teeth and get on with the job at hand.

I agree the correct terminolgy should be used at all times and I do my best to encourage that. But I have learned to accept things when someone tells me their motor is making bad noises.

That statement is often followed by something like - I was at such and such a place (10 to 15 miles away) and the oil light came on. So I drove here as fast as I could!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1966 Volkswagen Type 1 is the acme of automotive evolution.
It incorporates both a motor and an engine and utilizes swing arm rear suspension. Attempts to better the swing arm technology in 1967 began the
de-evolutionary slide of the Type 1 leading to plastic dashboards, round windshields, petroleum based seat cushions, Macpherson struts and devices that emitted noises when the doors were opened.

I long for the days of chromed metal bumpers, wooden boats and Latin mass.

FG
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fred g wrote:
The 1966 Volkswagen Type 1 is the acme of automotive evolution.
It incorporates both a motor and an engine and utilizes swing arm rear suspension. Attempts to better the swing arm technology in 1967 began the
de-evolutionary slide of the Type 1 leading to plastic dashboards, round windshields, petroleum based seat cushions, Macpherson struts and devices that emitted noises when the doors were opened.

I long for the days of chromed metal bumpers, wooden boats and Latin mass.

FG


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helfen wrote:
....I mean you wouldn't call a steam engine a steam motor would you?


Maybe not today, but...

From Scientific American from the 1890's:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A Steam Street Railway Motor

While in Paris, President Yerkes, of the North Chicago Street Railway Company, purchased a noiseless steam motor, the results in experimenting with which will be watched with great interest. The accompanying engraving, for which we are indebted to the Street Railway Review, gives a very accurate idea of the general external appearance. The car is all steel throughout, except windows, doors and ceiling. It is 12 ft. long, 8 ft. wide, and 9 ft. high, and weighs about seven tons. The engines, which have 25 horse power and are of the double cylinder pattern, are below the floor and connected directly to the wheels. The wheels are four in number and 31 in. in diameter. The internal appearance and general arrangement of machinery, etc., is about that of the ordinary steam dummy. It will run in either direction, and the exhaust steam is run through a series of mufflers which suppress the sound, condense the steam and return the water to the boiler, which occupies the center of the car. The motor was built in Ghent, Belgium, and cost about $5,000, custom house duties amounting to about $2,000 more. - The Railway Review.

Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

79SuperVert wrote:
Helfen wrote:
....I mean you wouldn't call a steam engine a steam motor would you?


Maybe not today, but...

From Scientific American from the 1890's:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A Steam Street Railway Motor

While in Paris, President Yerkes, of the North Chicago Street Railway Company, purchased a noiseless steam motor, the results in experimenting with which will be watched with great interest. The accompanying engraving, for which we are indebted to the Street Railway Review, gives a very accurate idea of the general external appearance. The car is all steel throughout, except windows, doors and ceiling. It is 12 ft. long, 8 ft. wide, and 9 ft. high, and weighs about seven tons. The engines, which have 25 horse power and are of the double cylinder pattern, are below the floor and connected directly to the wheels. The wheels are four in number and 31 in. in diameter. The internal appearance and general arrangement of machinery, etc., is about that of the ordinary steam dummy. It will run in either direction, and the exhaust steam is run through a series of mufflers which suppress the sound, condense the steam and return the water to the boiler, which occupies the center of the car. The motor was built in Ghent, Belgium, and cost about $5,000, custom house duties amounting to about $2,000 more. - The Railway Review.

Wink


They are contradicting themselves aren't they ! Describing the motive power the coach uses it say's:

The engines, which have 25 horse power and are of the double cylinder pattern, are below the floor and connected directly to the wheels. The wheels are four in number and 31 in. in diameter. The internal appearance and general arrangement of machinery.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that by "engines" they meant the steam cylinders that drive the pistons and connecting rods to the wheels. Strange terminology since by that time (the 1880's) surely people referred to steam locomotives as "engines" and not as "motors". They may also have meant "motor" to be a small self-contained and self-propelled vehicle. In any case I was just messin' with you. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Swing Axle VS. IRS !! Beat this to death.. Reply with quote

here's a good vid showing the m151 military jeep which orginaly cam with a swing arm suspension, shows how the swing arm performs, they then switched to a IFS per say
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqLbcHYN1hM
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fowvay wrote:
germanpride wrote:
swing axle cars look badass when slammed


I'm not picking on you or anything but are you saying you actually like the acute angles created by slamming a swinger?

I personally much prefer the straight up and down of an IRS rear end for slamming as it gives a much better contact patch and doesnt make it look like the rear wheels are broken.

Tom aka Fowvay


Amen to that. Camber is a ridiculous look. To each his own, but I've always thought it looks like something is broken. Not to mention the litany of mechanical issues that go along with it. I saw a post the other day of a guy who made his own front end. Impressive work, but in the end, the front wheels had camber too! Dumbest look I've ever seen. The only thing worse than camber on the rear wheels is camber on the front too. Again, to each his own. It's not for me.

JAM
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