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jason Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2002 Posts: 3444 Location: Garage
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Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject: What oil to use during break in |
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I was wondering what oil I should use during initial break-in? I have been told to run non detergent for the first few runnings. I have also heard the opposite, use the regular oil. |
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germanstyle Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2003 Posts: 289 Location: santa rosa, ca
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Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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i've always used straigth 30w for break in _________________ <<<<< that's not me just a VW homie we call crazy chris |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76938 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:10 am Post subject: |
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I use Shell Rotella T 15W-40. Lots of zinc. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Big Jim Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2004 Posts: 291 Location: Denver
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Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Non detergent may have been just the ticket for a model T but I don't think it is appropriate for engines built to modern specifications. The Rotella is a higher detergent oil. Shell makes good oil!. |
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Bugzlife Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 268
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Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:19 am Post subject: |
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30 weight Non-detergent _________________ I'm looking for some rear wheels for my rail( 4lug), 8" wide up to 12" with or without tires, |
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turboblue Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2003 Posts: 4216 Location: Central Indiana
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Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Rotella T 15w40 for me too. I have it in everything I own, including the riding lawnmower. _________________ Gary
Turbo VW Sand Drag Buggy
"If you don't run into the Devil every once in awhile, you must be going in the same direction!" |
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Muffler Mike Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2002 Posts: 1054 Location: Lawndale Ca.
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Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:02 am Post subject: |
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this is only a guess on my part, but i think back in the earlier days of Detergent oils, the stuff they use to use for the detergents, would glaze up a cylinder and making it hard to brake in.
I think today's oils, there is not that kind of issue.
Now, this is a guess on my part. _________________ Muffler Mike
http://MufflerMike.com |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13280 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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for break in, I use cheap stuff. Whatever semi-major brand is on sale. It's only in there for 15 minutes, so I use chevron, valvoline etc. |
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chinarider Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2002 Posts: 276 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Straight 30-weight, non-detergent is fine. You're going to be changing the oil very soon, anyway.
I've heard that it's ok to go from detergent to non-detergent, but it's not ok to go from non-detergent to detergent. Something about the detergent tending to loosen up pieces of junk and metal that are coated and out of harms way. Anyone else hear of this? |
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Big Jim Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2004 Posts: 291 Location: Denver
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Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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This is not hard evidence but my dad and I took an engine that was severly cruded up and equipped with thick, black, old oil. We used Series 3 deiesel oil which had the most detergent of any available. Within 50 miles of highway driving, there was a distinct difference. Did one more change like that, went to regular oil and drove it another 50k before I gave it, still running, to my brother-in-law.
If you make any drastic change in oil, just make the first time fairly short and do a good oil change after not many miles - hot, filter, screen, everything. |
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Alan_U Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2004 Posts: 1762 Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:50 am Post subject: |
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I very seldom ever here people ranting about how there piston rings not seating in a flat 4. On engine assembly minimal amount of oil should be applied on the rings but just enough for some lubrication. However you do hear people crying over how there lifters pitting or turning into mushrooms stumps or a cam going flat.
Zinc back in the day was a generous content in motor oil. Now due to catalytic damage from zinc has been reduced by the automotive standards association.
Rotella T 15w40 (group 1 regular mineral oil) is in the good books with me. One of the highest zinc content I can find in a group 1-3 mineral motor oil. Since I'm a Canadian I would also use petro Canada's Duron + 15w40 hydrocracked group 2 motor oil as well due to high zinc content. Zinc for that antiscuff mineral that "may" help the reduction of a bad breakin.
The company "MOTUL" which is based in france even suggest using their semi-synthetic 6100 line of oil. This info is coming from the actual person that formulates there oil and not just a regular joe that works for that reputable company. Goes to show that people have changed there ways of thinking when it comes to engine oil.
Non detergent oils do not suspend debris compared to the detergent type. Suspended contamination is what the oil filter is suppose to pick up (this is why full flow systems are highly recommended) So if you use non detergent oil for a long time you'll find alot of bad deposits on the bottom of your sump which is great if you like to sandpaper your bearings and wear piston rings (being sarcastic). Diesels have a bad isssue with soot. This is why diesels have a very high concentration of detergent to prevent bad deposits in the engine.
YOu can use any oil you want for breakin but for piece of mind I think Rotella T and a bottle of GM EOS is a great elixer as well as doing a dance for the "cam breakin gods". Remember good rockwell compatibility of cam and lifters is the ticket these days too and not just "what oil to use in breakin"
If your lifter bores are out of spec your lifters will be in mushroom stumps in no time. Goes to show engine assembly is critical and not just talkin oil. _________________ 11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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ACSwede Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2002 Posts: 285 Location: SWEDEN
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I can only attest to what Alan just said:
Quote: |
YOu can use any oil you want for breakin but for piece of mind I think Rotella T and a bottle of GM EOS is a great elixer as well as doing a dance for the "cam breakin gods". |
Hence, add 1/2 a bottle of GM "E.O.S Assembly Lubricant" (#1052367) when initially firing it up...then add the other half when changing the oil after initial break in ---> some added ZINK is good!
/NT |
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VolksWorld2000 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 174 Location: Inglewood, Cali
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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I use synthtic oil unconditionally for everything. _________________ ________________________________________
*58 Bug,
*68 Karmann Ghia convertible,
and much more to come from this sick addiction. |
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Alan_U Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2004 Posts: 1762 Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:39 am Post subject: |
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VolksWorld2000 wrote: |
I use synthtic oil unconditionally for everything. |
Well an oil engineer at MOTUL said using their 6100 synthetic blend oil is acceptable in breaking in a fresh motor. However he said you should NOT use their Ester based 8100 or 300V Ester based race oil or you will have a problem with oil consumption.
I gather with that information from an expert oil formulator that theoretically "REAL" true synthetic based oils will cause minimal wear when you require it to seat in fresh rings. Tolerances these days in modern new engines are really tight so I wouldn't gamble. Also not all synthetic oils are created equal. Some have way better additives than others. Heck if North America can consider a hydrocracked "dino" mineral based oil as a "synthetic" That really confuses consumers who think they are really buying a true SYNTHETIC based oil. Castrol is NOT synthetic. Its an excellent quality hydrocracked "dino" oil since it is NOT PAO or Ester synthetic base. Castrol syntec is mineral based.
Using regular dino oil for breaking in is probably a better idea then switching to synthetic. Especially if you haven't honed your new cylinders and used total seal rings. Those do take more time to seat then the rings provided by Mahle in the kit.
VolksWorld2000 what brand synthetic are you using???
My view on things is that in flat 4 owners will run the engine for 20 minutes and dump the oil. In a brand new Porsche or other exotics that comes with synthetic from the factory (brand?? ester? PAO? or a so called synthetic when its a hydrocracked dino oil??) The oil is kept in the engine for a longer period of time 3000 miles or so. I even find it a shame to waste money on good Rotella T and dumping it in 20 minutes. Synthetic would be a shameful waste dumping it in such a short period of time. _________________ 11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17290 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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ACSwede wrote: |
Hence, add 1/2 a bottle of GM "E.O.S Assembly Lubricant" (#1052367) when initially firing it up...then add the other half when changing the oil after initial break in ---> some added ZINK is good!
/NT |
Read the fine print on that bottle of EOS. The stuff you get in Calif doesn't have the zinc. The CARB found out it had zinc and got it banned in CA. That's why I usually smuggle in a few bottles for friends when I go there. |
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VolksWorld2000 Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 174 Location: Inglewood, Cali
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Alan_U wrote: |
VolksWorld2000 wrote: |
I use synthtic oil unconditionally for everything. |
Well an oil engineer at MOTUL said using their 6100 synthetic blend oil is acceptable in breaking in a fresh motor. However he said you should NOT use their Ester based 8100 or 300V Ester based race oil or you will have a problem with oil consumption.
I gather with that information from an expert oil formulator that theoretically "REAL" true synthetic based oils will cause minimal wear when you require it to seat in fresh rings. Tolerances these days in modern new engines are really tight so I wouldn't gamble. Also not all synthetic oils are created equal. Some have way better additives than others. Heck if North America can consider a hydrocracked "dino" mineral based oil as a "synthetic" That really confuses consumers who think they are really buying a true SYNTHETIC based oil. Castrol is NOT synthetic. Its an excellent quality hydrocracked "dino" oil since it is NOT PAO or Ester synthetic base. Castrol syntec is mineral based.
Using regular dino oil for breaking in is probably a better idea then switching to synthetic. Especially if you haven't honed your new cylinders and used total seal rings. Those do take more time to seat then the rings provided by Mahle in the kit.
VolksWorld2000 what brand synthetic are you using???
My view on things is that in flat 4 owners will run the engine for 20 minutes and dump the oil. In a brand new Porsche or other exotics that comes with synthetic from the factory (brand?? ester? PAO? or a so called synthetic when its a hydrocracked dino oil??) The oil is kept in the engine for a longer period of time 3000 miles or so. I even find it a shame to waste money on good Rotella T and dumping it in 20 minutes. Synthetic would be a shameful waste dumping it in such a short period of time. |
First off I have to tell you that I'm impressed with your extensive research on oil quality. This information is very useful, as well as critical to the life of an engine. According to what your're telling me, I probally have been spending too much money for years on an inferior quality synthetic. The "synthetic" that I've been purchasing is Valvoline.
What is the quality of this product? Also what products do you use?
thanks a million _________________ ________________________________________
*58 Bug,
*68 Karmann Ghia convertible,
and much more to come from this sick addiction. |
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Alan_U Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2004 Posts: 1762 Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Volksworld2000,
What synthetic from Valvoline?? Synpower?? Well I've been lurking on the website
www.bobistheoilguy.com
Well Valvoline has replaced its synthetic base stock. According to the MSDS numbers (Material Safety Data Sheets ) the Synpower synthetics that are multigrade 30 weights are group 3 (Hydrocracked dino mineral oil) but the multi 50 weights are PAO. So in otherwords alot of BS in tricking the public in buying a 30 weight that IS NOT SYNTHETIC.
I'd suggest lurking on that site I mentioned. Alot of oil geek material but tonnes of great info for enquiring minds.
I'm using Motul's 8100 Ester based oil for my 97 honda civic (was using series 2000 amsoil pao based synthetic. I am using a cheaper Petro Canada's DURON diesel oil (Group 2 hydrocrack) for my 2332 flat 4. I think it'd be better for me to go synthetic in my flat 4 but I expect to crack the engine case more often for preventative maintenance so I dont see a huge advantage in going high quality synthetic. OK OK I'm a cheap guy!!! Seriously I think my group 2 diesel oil provides excellent stabilityand has apparently a phenominal oil package additive.
Even my other favourite "rotella t" isn't even a group 2 or 3 hydrocrack. Its a group 1 regular base stock BUT excellent oil additives.
Look up some info on your synthetic oil. Ester base is the best for oil bases and then companies start doing a mix of ester with PAO and others.
All I say is change your oil frequently and the engine is happy. I think I'll bitch and bitch with the BS going on because people are getting sucked in spending alot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a "so called synthetic" when for marginally more you can buy a better base stock oil such as PAO. Ester is the most expensive in the bunch. I wont slam anyone for trying to get better motor oils. Mobil 1's supersyn is suppose to get great raves with their mix of base stock.
So bottom line if your using a group 1 regular dino oil great!! just change it frequently. If you get a group 2 or 3 oil (hydrocracked) even better!! If you decided to go more expensive and buy PAO or ester based synthetics your getting a great product but more $$$ obviously.
I think everyone must look at the cost per liter and try to select a synthetic that meets their budget. Any synthetic will hold up better to thermal breakdown. its all about $$$$
I hope this helps _________________ 11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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BrianP03103 Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2004 Posts: 10 Location: Manchester, NH, USA
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that the question was regarding what lubricant to use for initial break-in (usually about a 30-45 minute period at about 2500 RPM). There is no quick acceleration (with its torque demands). Cylinder heat is (or certainly should be carefully monitored. IMHO, all of this fancy analysis of extended life oils is vast overkill. The lifetime of this lubricant is measured in minutes!
All this being said, I'm going to make a suggestion that I realize is more than a little out of the ordinary. However, it was successful for me when I was re-building engines for a living, a number of years ago (I'm now retired). Ready?
I suggest using 50% 30W Castroil (I use no other brand) and 50% Marvel Mystery Oil. Yes, I know that's different, but Mystery Oil is an extremely slick lubricant, especially for cams and lifters. No, it won't bear up under a lot of pressure or sustained heat, and it will tend to break down over long times (>2500 miles). BUT, the break in period (as described above) is brief and carefully controlled. In my experience, it is perfect to allowing good seating of valves and lifters, good scuffing of the cylinders, and correct wear of the crank and cam.
BTW, I also use Mystery Oil to fill my oil filter when I change the oil. I thereby preclude a dry start up, and introduce about a pint of Mystery Oil to the lubrication system. No, I don't work for Solder Seal. _________________ Brian P
Manchester, NH, USA
What?! A Beetle with a WASSER cooled engine in FRONT!? Sacrilege! :crazyeyes: |
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Alan_U Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2004 Posts: 1762 Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Just recently found that Valvoline Supersyn oil additive in a small 15 ounce bottle contains over 1500ppm zinc aswell as phosphorus. This has more zinc than GM EOS which has aprox 1300ppm.
Some people even think Moly is a more effective additive to prevent less wear.
hmm another elixer _________________ 11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.
No more time for VW's....... |
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