Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
What oil to use during break in
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jason
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3443
Location: Garage
jason is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: What oil to use during break in Reply with quote

I was wondering what oil I should use during initial break-in? I have been told to run non detergent for the first few runnings. I have also heard the opposite, use the regular oil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
germanstyle
Samba Member


Joined: April 24, 2003
Posts: 289
Location: santa rosa, ca
germanstyle is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've always used straigth 30w for break in
_________________
<<<<< that's not me just a VW homie we call crazy chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Glenn Premium Member
Mr. 010


Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76761
Location: Sneaking up behind you
Glenn is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Shell Rotella T 15W-40. Lots of zinc.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Big Jim
Samba Member


Joined: May 27, 2004
Posts: 291
Location: Denver
Big Jim is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non detergent may have been just the ticket for a model T but I don't think it is appropriate for engines built to modern specifications. The Rotella is a higher detergent oil. Shell makes good oil!.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bugzlife
Samba Member


Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 268

Bugzlife is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

30 weight Non-detergent
_________________
I'm looking for some rear wheels for my rail( 4lug), 8" wide up to 12" with or without tires,
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
turboblue
Samba Member


Joined: October 09, 2003
Posts: 4216
Location: Central Indiana
turboblue is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rotella T 15w40 for me too. I have it in everything I own, including the riding lawnmower.
_________________
Gary

Turbo VW Sand Drag Buggy

"If you don't run into the Devil every once in awhile, you must be going in the same direction!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Muffler Mike
Samba Member


Joined: October 10, 2002
Posts: 1054
Location: Lawndale Ca.
Muffler Mike is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is only a guess on my part, but i think back in the earlier days of Detergent oils, the stuff they use to use for the detergents, would glaze up a cylinder and making it hard to brake in.
I think today's oils, there is not that kind of issue.
Now, this is a guess on my part.
_________________
Muffler Mike
http://MufflerMike.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Erik G
Samba Member


Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13247
Location: Tejas!
Erik G is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for break in, I use cheap stuff. Whatever semi-major brand is on sale. It's only in there for 15 minutes, so I use chevron, valvoline etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
chinarider
Samba Member


Joined: November 08, 2002
Posts: 276
Location: San Francisco, CA
chinarider is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Straight 30-weight, non-detergent is fine. You're going to be changing the oil very soon, anyway.

I've heard that it's ok to go from detergent to non-detergent, but it's not ok to go from non-detergent to detergent. Something about the detergent tending to loosen up pieces of junk and metal that are coated and out of harms way. Anyone else hear of this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Big Jim
Samba Member


Joined: May 27, 2004
Posts: 291
Location: Denver
Big Jim is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is not hard evidence but my dad and I took an engine that was severly cruded up and equipped with thick, black, old oil. We used Series 3 deiesel oil which had the most detergent of any available. Within 50 miles of highway driving, there was a distinct difference. Did one more change like that, went to regular oil and drove it another 50k before I gave it, still running, to my brother-in-law.
If you make any drastic change in oil, just make the first time fairly short and do a good oil change after not many miles - hot, filter, screen, everything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Alan_U
Samba Member


Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
Alan_U is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I very seldom ever here people ranting about how there piston rings not seating in a flat 4. On engine assembly minimal amount of oil should be applied on the rings but just enough for some lubrication. However you do hear people crying over how there lifters pitting or turning into mushrooms stumps or a cam going flat.

Zinc back in the day was a generous content in motor oil. Now due to catalytic damage from zinc has been reduced by the automotive standards association.

Rotella T 15w40 (group 1 regular mineral oil) is in the good books with me. One of the highest zinc content I can find in a group 1-3 mineral motor oil. Since I'm a Canadian I would also use petro Canada's Duron + 15w40 hydrocracked group 2 motor oil as well due to high zinc content. Zinc for that antiscuff mineral that "may" help the reduction of a bad breakin.

The company "MOTUL" which is based in france even suggest using their semi-synthetic 6100 line of oil. This info is coming from the actual person that formulates there oil and not just a regular joe that works for that reputable company. Goes to show that people have changed there ways of thinking when it comes to engine oil.

Non detergent oils do not suspend debris compared to the detergent type. Suspended contamination is what the oil filter is suppose to pick up (this is why full flow systems are highly recommended) So if you use non detergent oil for a long time you'll find alot of bad deposits on the bottom of your sump which is great if you like to sandpaper your bearings and wear piston rings (being sarcastic). Diesels have a bad isssue with soot. This is why diesels have a very high concentration of detergent to prevent bad deposits in the engine.

YOu can use any oil you want for breakin but for piece of mind I think Rotella T and a bottle of GM EOS is a great elixer as well as doing a dance for the "cam breakin gods". Remember good rockwell compatibility of cam and lifters is the ticket these days too and not just "what oil to use in breakin"

If your lifter bores are out of spec your lifters will be in mushroom stumps in no time. Goes to show engine assembly is critical and not just talkin oil.
_________________
11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.

No more time for VW's.......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Classifieds Feedback
ACSwede
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2002
Posts: 285
Location: SWEDEN
ACSwede is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only attest to what Alan just said:
Quote:
YOu can use any oil you want for breakin but for piece of mind I think Rotella T and a bottle of GM EOS is a great elixer as well as doing a dance for the "cam breakin gods".


Hence, add 1/2 a bottle of GM "E.O.S Assembly Lubricant" (#1052367) when initially firing it up...then add the other half when changing the oil after initial break in ---> some added ZINK is good!
/NT
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VolksWorld2000
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2004
Posts: 174
Location: Inglewood, Cali
VolksWorld2000 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use synthtic oil unconditionally for everything.
_________________
________________________________________
*58 Bug,
*68 Karmann Ghia convertible,
and much more to come from this sick addiction.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Classifieds Feedback
Alan_U
Samba Member


Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
Alan_U is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VolksWorld2000 wrote:
I use synthtic oil unconditionally for everything.


Well an oil engineer at MOTUL said using their 6100 synthetic blend oil is acceptable in breaking in a fresh motor. However he said you should NOT use their Ester based 8100 or 300V Ester based race oil or you will have a problem with oil consumption.

I gather with that information from an expert oil formulator that theoretically "REAL" true synthetic based oils will cause minimal wear when you require it to seat in fresh rings. Tolerances these days in modern new engines are really tight so I wouldn't gamble. Also not all synthetic oils are created equal. Some have way better additives than others. Heck if North America can consider a hydrocracked "dino" mineral based oil as a "synthetic" That really confuses consumers who think they are really buying a true SYNTHETIC based oil. Castrol is NOT synthetic. Its an excellent quality hydrocracked "dino" oil since it is NOT PAO or Ester synthetic base. Castrol syntec is mineral based.

Using regular dino oil for breaking in is probably a better idea then switching to synthetic. Especially if you haven't honed your new cylinders and used total seal rings. Those do take more time to seat then the rings provided by Mahle in the kit.

VolksWorld2000 what brand synthetic are you using???

My view on things is that in flat 4 owners will run the engine for 20 minutes and dump the oil. In a brand new Porsche or other exotics that comes with synthetic from the factory (brand?? ester? PAO? or a so called synthetic when its a hydrocracked dino oil??) The oil is kept in the engine for a longer period of time 3000 miles or so. I even find it a shame to waste money on good Rotella T and dumping it in 20 minutes. Synthetic would be a shameful waste dumping it in such a short period of time.
_________________
11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.

No more time for VW's.......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Classifieds Feedback
Bruce
Samba Member


Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17273
Location: Left coast, Canada
Bruce is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ACSwede wrote:
Hence, add 1/2 a bottle of GM "E.O.S Assembly Lubricant" (#1052367) when initially firing it up...then add the other half when changing the oil after initial break in ---> some added ZINK is good!
/NT


Read the fine print on that bottle of EOS. The stuff you get in Calif doesn't have the zinc. The CARB found out it had zinc and got it banned in CA. That's why I usually smuggle in a few bottles for friends when I go there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VolksWorld2000
Samba Member


Joined: May 17, 2004
Posts: 174
Location: Inglewood, Cali
VolksWorld2000 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan_U wrote:
VolksWorld2000 wrote:
I use synthtic oil unconditionally for everything.


Well an oil engineer at MOTUL said using their 6100 synthetic blend oil is acceptable in breaking in a fresh motor. However he said you should NOT use their Ester based 8100 or 300V Ester based race oil or you will have a problem with oil consumption.

I gather with that information from an expert oil formulator that theoretically "REAL" true synthetic based oils will cause minimal wear when you require it to seat in fresh rings. Tolerances these days in modern new engines are really tight so I wouldn't gamble. Also not all synthetic oils are created equal. Some have way better additives than others. Heck if North America can consider a hydrocracked "dino" mineral based oil as a "synthetic" That really confuses consumers who think they are really buying a true SYNTHETIC based oil. Castrol is NOT synthetic. Its an excellent quality hydrocracked "dino" oil since it is NOT PAO or Ester synthetic base. Castrol syntec is mineral based.

Using regular dino oil for breaking in is probably a better idea then switching to synthetic. Especially if you haven't honed your new cylinders and used total seal rings. Those do take more time to seat then the rings provided by Mahle in the kit.

VolksWorld2000 what brand synthetic are you using???

My view on things is that in flat 4 owners will run the engine for 20 minutes and dump the oil. In a brand new Porsche or other exotics that comes with synthetic from the factory (brand?? ester? PAO? or a so called synthetic when its a hydrocracked dino oil??) The oil is kept in the engine for a longer period of time 3000 miles or so. I even find it a shame to waste money on good Rotella T and dumping it in 20 minutes. Synthetic would be a shameful waste dumping it in such a short period of time.


First off I have to tell you that I'm impressed with your extensive research on oil quality. This information is very useful, as well as critical to the life of an engine. According to what your're telling me, I probally have been spending too much money for years on an inferior quality synthetic. The "synthetic" that I've been purchasing is Valvoline.
What is the quality of this product? Also what products do you use?
thanks a million
_________________
________________________________________
*58 Bug,
*68 Karmann Ghia convertible,
and much more to come from this sick addiction.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Classifieds Feedback
Alan_U
Samba Member


Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
Alan_U is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volksworld2000,

What synthetic from Valvoline?? Synpower?? Well I've been lurking on the website

www.bobistheoilguy.com

Well Valvoline has replaced its synthetic base stock. According to the MSDS numbers (Material Safety Data Sheets ) the Synpower synthetics that are multigrade 30 weights are group 3 (Hydrocracked dino mineral oil) but the multi 50 weights are PAO. So in otherwords alot of BS in tricking the public in buying a 30 weight that IS NOT SYNTHETIC.

I'd suggest lurking on that site I mentioned. Alot of oil geek material but tonnes of great info for enquiring minds.

I'm using Motul's 8100 Ester based oil for my 97 honda civic (was using series 2000 amsoil pao based synthetic. I am using a cheaper Petro Canada's DURON diesel oil (Group 2 hydrocrack) for my 2332 flat 4. I think it'd be better for me to go synthetic in my flat 4 but I expect to crack the engine case more often for preventative maintenance so I dont see a huge advantage in going high quality synthetic. OK OK I'm a cheap guy!!! Laughing Seriously I think my group 2 diesel oil provides excellent stabilityand has apparently a phenominal oil package additive.

Even my other favourite "rotella t" isn't even a group 2 or 3 hydrocrack. Its a group 1 regular base stock BUT excellent oil additives.

Look up some info on your synthetic oil. Ester base is the best for oil bases and then companies start doing a mix of ester with PAO and others.

All I say is change your oil frequently and the engine is happy. I think I'll bitch and bitch with the BS going on because people are getting sucked in spending alot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a "so called synthetic" when for marginally more you can buy a better base stock oil such as PAO. Ester is the most expensive in the bunch. I wont slam anyone for trying to get better motor oils. Mobil 1's supersyn is suppose to get great raves with their mix of base stock.

So bottom line if your using a group 1 regular dino oil great!! just change it frequently. If you get a group 2 or 3 oil (hydrocracked) even better!! If you decided to go more expensive and buy PAO or ester based synthetics your getting a great product but more $$$ obviously.

I think everyone must look at the cost per liter and try to select a synthetic that meets their budget. Any synthetic will hold up better to thermal breakdown. its all about $$$$

I hope this helps
_________________
11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.

No more time for VW's.......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Classifieds Feedback
BrianP03103
Samba Member


Joined: August 22, 2004
Posts: 10
Location: Manchester, NH, USA
BrianP03103 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that the question was regarding what lubricant to use for initial break-in (usually about a 30-45 minute period at about 2500 RPM). There is no quick acceleration (with its torque demands). Cylinder heat is (or certainly should be carefully monitored. IMHO, all of this fancy analysis of extended life oils is vast overkill. The lifetime of this lubricant is measured in minutes!

All this being said, I'm going to make a suggestion that I realize is more than a little out of the ordinary. However, it was successful for me when I was re-building engines for a living, a number of years ago (I'm now retired). Ready?

I suggest using 50% 30W Castroil (I use no other brand) and 50% Marvel Mystery Oil. Yes, I know that's different, but Mystery Oil is an extremely slick lubricant, especially for cams and lifters. No, it won't bear up under a lot of pressure or sustained heat, and it will tend to break down over long times (>2500 miles). BUT, the break in period (as described above) is brief and carefully controlled. In my experience, it is perfect to allowing good seating of valves and lifters, good scuffing of the cylinders, and correct wear of the crank and cam.

BTW, I also use Mystery Oil to fill my oil filter when I change the oil. I thereby preclude a dry start up, and introduce about a pint of Mystery Oil to the lubrication system. No, I don't work for Solder Seal.
_________________
Brian P
Manchester, NH, USA

What?! A Beetle with a WASSER cooled engine in FRONT!? Sacrilege! :crazyeyes:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Alan_U
Samba Member


Joined: July 10, 2004
Posts: 1762
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
Alan_U is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just recently found that Valvoline Supersyn oil additive in a small 15 ounce bottle contains over 1500ppm zinc aswell as phosphorus. This has more zinc than GM EOS which has aprox 1300ppm.

Some people even think Moly is a more effective additive to prevent less wear.

hmm another elixer Wink
_________________
11.92sec pump gas true daily driver. Who says it cant be done.

No more time for VW's.......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.