recomendations for first time rocker panel weld - added pics

[marklaken]

okay i am torn at this point to persue a MIG welding rig and try and weld in the drivers side rocker panel on my '67 bus by myself or to find someone to do it.

From my search, it sounds like this is a tricky weld because the panel is so long it tends to warp...low heat and patience sounds like the key to doing it right...

the only other weld i need is the battery tray and a small hole in my passenger front floor, which doesn't sound nearly as tricky...this along with some scrap body work would be my first experience with welding

I have a couple folks that could help me learn welding a bit, even have the equipment for me to use, but they have no experience with vw bodys and i would want to practice alot more than borrowing their equipment would allow...

so, given all that, I am looking to hear from some others out there that have replaced this panel and some hints/warnings. Also, would like to hear if it is indeed a hard weld and not suited to a novice would be welder

thanks, Mark
_________________
Wish List:
1967 Wesfalia SO-42 Parts Needed: Kitchenette, Cot Poles

'65 rear left beetle fender

15" Bus Wheels in fair condition

Mark Laken
Fort Collins, CO

[Major Woody]

Mark, if I had this repair to do, I would flange it instead of butt welding it. Be sure to use weld-thru primer and then seal it from the back to the extent possible.

Have a helper use a wet rag as a heat sink on the back side of the weld, and just do lots of tack welds, never a continuous bead longer than a quarter inch.

Remember it is possible to generate a lot of heat when grinding as well. Employ the same heat control principles then as well.

The best way to do this is to have another thing you are doing at the same time, so you can step away once you've heated the panel up too much to continue. That way you don't get impatient waiting for the heat to dissipate.

[Z]

If you are using the typical repro rocker (the orange-primered one, available almost everywhere), be sure to check that the curvature is correct and that it meets the attachment points all the way around WITHOUT the need for heavy clamping - you should be able to set it in place and have each edge sit right where it should be, without pushing and bending any further. If it doesn't, (and a lot of this orange-primered stuff is not exact) gently bend the curve until it does. You might have to make a small relief cut (on the lip at the wheel well) to allow the correct bend.

When I replaced mine, the top flange/edge was about 1/2 to 3/4 inch from where it should be when the bottom lip was in place. Instead of trying to bend/shape the panel, I thought it would be better to use clamps to pull it tight. Unfortunately, the slight tension that this created caused some minor waviness in the long seam after welding. It was fixable, but a LOT more work than shaping the panel correctly in the beginning.

And listen to Woody about the tack welds (and the other stuff, too) - go slow !! This panel is a bitch to get right if you make it wavy w/too much heat.

Good luck.

[marklaken]

well i got one of those orange rocker panels with my bus and the previous owner went crazy with a cutoff disc and cut the rocker (and a support post, behind the drivers seat, which i think metwiz sells replacements)...

anyway, i think he cut it to the dimension of the panel (i hope he didn't go to big!, but i am guessing that i do not have the excess material to make a flange and would have to butt-weld it...how much material would you need for the flange?...

I assume that the orange panel is pre-primered in a weld thru primer...is this correct?

i also saw a thread recently in the split bus forum on pass side rockers and may consider getting one from another manufacturer (maybe overseas?..not sure) Are they a btter fit for drivers side?...also does anyone know if it the expensive one is approx. the same size as the cheapo orange panels (if so, it wouldn't give me the option to flange)...

thanks for the hints, Mark
_________________
Wish List:
1967 Wesfalia SO-42 Parts Needed: Kitchenette, Cot Poles

'65 rear left beetle fender

15" Bus Wheels in fair condition

Mark Laken
Fort Collins, CO

[Mr. Bungle]

the primer on the orange repro panel is not weld thru primer, it is cheap primer used to coat and protect ( ) repro panels. all of that should eventually comeoff. it is not a good base for filler or paint.

the weld thru primer i use (3m) took a little bit of getting used to. it pops and spits and at first it was hard to get a good tack. i practiced for a bit on some scraps and got used to it quick. i found setting the voltage (heat) a little higher than normal helped.

like the others have said. tack every 6"s. and then in the middle of those tacks so all tacks are 3"s apart. and then in the middle of those so every tack is 1.5"s apart. and so on until they all meet up.

air can also be used to cool the welds and limit warpage. if you have a compressor, have an air chuck on the end of the hose and drape it over your knee and stop welding and cool it with air.

good luck. you can do this.

[marklaken]

yeah i talked to my wife and she said she thinks i should buy the tools and do it myself... of course, i probably quoted a little high when i told her what a body shop would run and i told her i could resell the tools when i'm done, if we decide they are unecessary, so me doing it is practically free!

so, i think a lincoln MIG and a large compressor are in my future!...

anyway, to finish this thread, the order i should weld the panel would be to do the top (thanks mr bungle for tips on how to do it well), then the bottom? and lastly the two short sides at the dogleg and rear wheel arch?...

the bottom of whats left of the old rocker looks like it is spot welded to the back side of the rocker....do i need a spot welder to do this or will the mig work?....

also a quick question on removing the remains of the old rocker...is it best to simply grind it off with an angle grinder where the old rocker is welded to the support columns and same with those spots welds along the bottom of the rocker?...any other tricks?

thanks for the helpful hints and encouragement...Mark
_________________
Wish List:
1967 Wesfalia SO-42 Parts Needed: Kitchenette, Cot Poles

'65 rear left beetle fender

15" Bus Wheels in fair condition

Mark Laken
Fort Collins, CO

[Major Woody]

Mark, you don't need a spot welder to do the bottom seam. When you take the old panel off, you can just drill through all the welds, through both panels. Then clean off the inner flange, apply weld thrugh primer, and then plug weld it from the back (by laying under the bus. Plug welding, or "rosette welding" simply means filling the hole in one panel with MIG wire when the two are clamped together. Try to minimize the size of these holes to 1/8" if possible, as filling a large hole generates a considerable amount of heat. If you do it this way, you will not have any welds to grind on the flange facing the outside of the bus.

When I fit a large panel, I mess with it until I can just "lay" it in the opening where it will go, and it will stay without the need for clamps to be exerting any force other than to counteract gravity. You don't want tension on it or the metal is going to stretch when it heats up. Undoing this effect is very difficult, especially when you are just starting out. The temptation is to start hitting it to knock it flat, but that just stretches it more. So yes, just keep trial fitting and bending, and trial fitting and bending, until the part will just lay in place with little force needed to keep it there.

I think the Alan Schofield long side rocker panels are available in two heights from Wolfgang. The fit on his panels is known to be superior. They cost more because of the exchange rate, but if your time is worth $5/hour, buying the best fitting part available seems to me to be a no brainer. You should call Wolfgang and find out what they have. The long panel can certainly be done without flanging but the fitting is a more fussy process because you want to leave a tiny gap (about the width of a MIG wire between the two panels. Any wider and you risk burning through. Any narrower and the weld won't fill the gap and a crack will appear when you grind the weld down. You can ensure that the cut line on the bus is super straight by laying down a long straightedge on the side of the bus and using Sharpie to trace along it. The use a zip disc and an angle grinder to cut right up to the line. Sometimes when doing a panel replacement you can use the replacement panel itself for the template. I'm not sure that is possible here, and at any rate you want to save as much of the original panel as possible. It is always easier to hide a seam in a curved area than in a large flat area.

One more trick--if you do butt weld it, try bending the butt welded edges very slightly inward before welding. This will tend to create a very slight depression so that you will not have to grind all of your weld off. You are going to need a skim coat of filler over the whole bottom 10" of the long side anyway.

Finally, as an extra bit of insurance, apply seam sealer or some sort of thick coating like POR-15 to the back side of the weld when you're all finished dressing it and before you begin your bodywork. This will help ensure that you don't get rust through from the back in any areas where the weld may have inadvertently been ground down paper thin.

If you did flange it, you would need about half an inch for the flange, and you would need to buy, rent or borrow a power flanging tool. Alternatively you could take the replacement panel to a metalworking shop or body shop and have them put a flange on it.

When you buy your weld through primer, get the brush on stuff. It comes in a little bottle with a brush in the lid. Inspect it before you leave the paint store, make sure all the solids aren't all settled to the bottom in a solid mass. Mine came that way and it took an hour of stirring to break the globs up.

[Z]

Excellent work getting the wifely approval on equipment - as long as you're on a tool buying pass, Snap-On makes a great spot-weld drill bit set. Beats the hell out of the cheap ones that are everywhere.

And that orange primer usually comes right off if you touch it, so don't rely on it for anything.

[marklaken]

okay i did some measuring and snapped a couple pics this morning and i was wondering a couple things...first, i'd say that the cheapo panel i have (shown in the bottom of the first pic) is crap..it is about 3/8" too short!...the repair i need to make has about 14" of existing solid metal in the middle of the panel. my first question is, can i get away with making two smaller repairs (like i've sharpied on the repair area)? the plus side would be that i could use my cheapo panel and would have an easier time making it fit...my fear is that there would be two vertical seams in that section of panel that might be hard to hide...any thoughts?

also, the top sharpie line is the size of the replacement panel...so i will flange the replacement panel with no problems (i'd cut out about .5" less material than that sharpie line if i flange the panel, right?). I am also wondering if i need to remove and replace the whole 8" section since that's the size of the repair panel or should i cut down the repair panel to a smaller height?

the second photo is zoomed in on the front repair and you can clearly see that i need to replace the 8" suppport pillar behind the dogleg and also the backside of the rocker is rusted through...I know metwiz sells the supports, but does anyone know of a good supplier of the rearside of the rocker?...any hints on making one if they are not available?

the last photo shows the rear repair...I am surprised that the area behind this repair at the wheel arch is solid...if i were to repair the rocker panel as partial panel repairs, would it be better (easier?) to save the busses existing rear wheel arch or cut it out and use the new rear wheel arch on the replacement panel?

if it would be easiest to just buy a better fitting schofield panel and replace the whole thing, please tell me so...

thanks in advance for all your patience with me...once you guys walk me through this repair, i'm gonna be able to buy a bus with twice as many holes!...
_________________
Wish List:
1967 Wesfalia SO-42 Parts Needed: Kitchenette, Cot Poles

'65 rear left beetle fender

15" Bus Wheels in fair condition

Mark Laken
Fort Collins, CO

[Major Woody]

I don't have strong opinions here but here is my 2 cents.

If the inner rocker is holey, I would just stop the rust and treat it to keep it from coming back. Patch the holes from the inside and brush on some seam sealer. I don't think it needs to be perfect.

I think I would cut out the whole repair area rather than keep that spot in the center. You may have more work with the initial repair, but your body man will have less work later on trying to make the patch blend in. My labor is "free" so I want to make life as easy for my painter as possible.

I'm not that sure that your center section is as solid as you think it is. It looks like it needs some patching and there appears to be a few spots where the rust is poking through from the inside. When you start trying to weld those up, each one of them is going to burn through to a diameter of 3/16". I suspect that if you sandblasted that spot, you might get a little surprise.

[Bklyn63]

cut it nice and square and weld in a new piece. tack all along the butted area.