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Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:27 pm

Is there supposed to be some slop here?? Where the inner CV joint connects to the transmission? The flange moves around some when you grab it and try to move it. I'm changing out to new axle assemblies trying to eliminate to clunking noise around left turns. ABout 15-20MPH. Clunk-clunk. Not the shock bolts. I checked them. TIA for your help. :?: :x :D

Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:31 pm

Is the play in and out, or up and down?

Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:06 pm

Up and Down. I didn't notice any in and out. I'll check though! :)

Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:47 pm

Not a big deal in the up and down plane. Back and forth, check the circlip and also hope that the spider gears in the differential aren't getting all worn out. Mine are wobbly and the left one leaks a little because the wobble is tough on the side cover seals. Originally, they were installed with VW spline cement, rebuilds rarely do that. Next time the half-shaft is off, delicately remove the black/blue rubber cap if you have one, and check to see that the circlip is secure. Some are steel all the way across the joint mounting flange.
Colin

Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:50 am

flabay wrote: Up and Down. I didn't notice any in and out. I'll check though!
A little movement, in and out is normal. They are technically callled sliding cv joints.

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:24 am

ratwell wrote: flabay wrote: Up and Down. I didn't notice any in and out. I'll check though!
A little movement, in and out is normal. They are technically callled sliding cv joints.

Are you speaking of the drive axles themselves here Ratwell? They can move in and out a lot. But the CV flange sticking out of the differential should not move in and out.
Colin

Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:31 pm

Yes. I wasn't clear.

Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:11 am

ratwell wrote: Yes. I wasn't clear.

Come to the Arctic Circle in June 2007 with us.
Colin

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:33 pm

Just a little up and down, but no in and out on those flanges, so I guess everyting is cool. I pulled the axles on Friday, and then it decided to start raining all weekend, so I just got back to it. Thanks for the tech help. I also noticed a little sqealing noise coming from the nosecone area when engine is on. Only does it for a minute and then stops once it warms up. I checked the gear lube level, and it's correct. Any concern here??? I'm thinking it could be a bearing going bad??

Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:19 pm

flabay wrote: Just a little up and down, but no in and out on those flanges, so I guess everyting is cool. I pulled the axles on Friday, and then it decided to start raining all weekend, so I just got back to it. Thanks for the tech help. I also noticed a little sqealing noise coming from the nosecone area when engine is on. Only does it for a minute and then stops once it warms up. I checked the gear lube level, and it's correct. Any concern here??? I'm thinking it could be a bearing going bad??

Mainshaft bearing spinning in it's bore? Mine did that for almost ten years.
Colin

Mon May 17, 2010 8:51 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Not a big deal in the up and down plane. Back and forth, check the circlip and also hope that the spider gears in the differential aren't getting all worn out. Mine are wobbly and the left one leaks a little because the wobble is tough on the side cover seals. Originally, they were installed with VW spline cement, rebuilds rarely do that. Next time the half-shaft is off, delicately remove the black/blue rubber cap if you have one, and check to see that the circlip is secure. Some are steel all the way across the joint mounting flange.
Colin

Ok, here's my entry in the thread from the dead competition :P

Anybody ever seen VW spline cement? What's it smell like? Is it 2 part like JB weld?
I've gotta reseal an 002 on a low budget hippie bus next week and although I haven't checked I know the flanges are going to be wiggly, that can't be good for the seals. I wonder if JB would tighten them up and withstand the abuse? Or is there something with a higher crush resistance? (ie: earth mover spline repair compound) any ideas on how to get them to cure in a centered state? Jig perhaps? It would suck to glue them into a permanently wobbly situation.

I may do nothing but I figured I'd throw this to the sharks and let you guys chew on it :wink:

Mon May 17, 2010 10:18 pm

busdaddy wrote: (ie: earth mover spline repair compound)

Check with Catapillar.

Mon May 17, 2010 10:24 pm

someone posted a while back where they used JB weld on something similar and it turned to powder. Anything you put in there is going to die from the loading and unloading. Best bet is to just replace the seals and know that in a couple of years they will leak again. You might find some used flanges that are a little tighter but there is no guarantee.

Mon May 17, 2010 10:31 pm

Here ya go busdaddy this stuff works great when retaining bearing race's and may help on this but most likely won't last forever.

Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:43 am

To add my 2 cents. I bought/installed a freshly rebuilt 091 transmission from German Transaxle and one of its drive flanges has a little up/down/forward/back play in it; there is no "in-out" play on either flange. I put 1k miles on it so far and there have been no leaks and it doesn't seem to affect anything. I hope this will not lead to serious issues down the road as I only have a 6 month warranty on this trans and it was not cheap.

~d

Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:06 pm

The one I just took out had up and down movement. The one from Arizona Transaxle that I just put in doesn't.

Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:30 pm

What Colin mentions is something I warn as many people as possible about. On the 091's, 004's...and possibly on the type 1 based and 002 trannys (I just don't know on those).....right behind the flange, bearing on teh face is a hardened steel spacer shim kind of round in cross section. Its about 3mm in diameter/thickness.

As the thrust washers in the differential between the differential housing itself and the side output shafts start to wear...it can beat up this outer spacer ring.
Or....it can go the other direction. If the wrong thickness or poor condition circlip isused to hold on teh CV flange...allowing slack between the hub and spacer ring underneath....it can start wearing the thrust washer inside the differential on that side.

It all ends the same though. Let it go too long and it wears out the spyder gears and they eventually break.

That being said....there are three kinds of movement available here. Please be sure you are noting which kind it is so you can correct the right thing.

(1) as others note...if you have poor spline to spline fit...axle to hub...you might feel some movement here. With the drive shaft removed....and go ahead and pull the center cap too....grab the CV with flange with two fingers at 6:00 and 12:00 oclock. Wiggle it. If it wiggles....notice carefully if the CV hub is moving underneath the C clip that holds it to the shaft. Test it at 3:00 and 9:00 also. If its splines...the movement should be identical. If its movement....but very little movement...and the hub is squirming under the C clip....see next.....

(2) If the CV squirms under the C clip....get a new clip that is slightly thicker. If that does not help...and the hub sloppily slides off the splines....its just worn. You can tighten this up a bit...by getting a hard circular mandrel and carefully peening the opening at both ends of the hub.....careful. You can also do this on a flat anvil surface. You just want to swell each end about .001-.002". It should slide on tighter. Check the fit of the C clip again and adjust if necessary.

(3) the other type of movement...the worrisome one was describe earflier. Again...with the axle disconnected and the C clip cap pulled out...grip the flange with 2 fingers at either ^;00 and 12:00 or at 3:00 and 9:00...and push/pull...only along the line of the axle... in and out only.
There is a small amount of tolerance that is supposed to be here. it in the bentley. But its only a few thousandths at best.
If you feel excesssive movement...again...look at the C clip. If the hub is moving in and out at the C-clip...Change the C clip for a thicker one....or if the C-clip fits tight in its shaft groove...time to pull the hub and check the thickness of the C-shaped shim behind the seal. If that is correct.....time to pull the differential and put new thrust washers in.
In the short run.....you can run for a while with a thicker C shim underneathe to keep from pounding the spyder gears....but eventually it will damage the teeth.

I have to look at this issue very carefully with my 004 tranmission...which uses the identical outer adjuster rings as an 091..and the same bearings and C-shims....because if I break the spyder gears...there are no r eplacements available. Not to mention that it can destroy the differential. Ray

Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:52 pm

Why don't I keep mine short and sweet. these are 30 + years old there is a little play in some (up and down not in and out) if you have in and out play that can be reshimed. I haven't seen it be a problem. I have never seen a 002 or 091 diff break from this. Yes its better to have a tight one but get real thay are old. These are rebiulds not new.

Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:13 pm

bigbore wrote: Why don't I keep mine short and sweet. these are 30 + years old there is a little play in some (up and down not in and out) if you have in and out play that can be reshimed. I haven't seen it be a problem. I have never seen a 002 or 091 diff break from this. Yes its better to have a tight one but get real thay are old. These are rebiulds not new.

Yes.....agreed...up and down play after 30 years (spline wear) is not something to worry about at all. Its old.
However...if it keeps you from properly diagnosing the possible in/out wear...its time to at least try to fix it.
The in out wear WILL eventually break the spyder gears if you just blow it off....which was the point of my post. Excessive in/out wear keeps pounding on the C shim and thrust washers as you turn corners.
As the gao increases between these parts...you alternatly get the output shaft stubs moving away from the spyders..and then moving to too deep of a mesh. This causes spalling in the spyder gear webs.

Unless you actually disassemble the differential and look inside....or until the teeth snap off...whichever comes first...you will never know that this problem is happening. It makes no noise.

Just because its old does not mean that excessive slop in this area is allowed. Once the spyders get spalled....try finding replacements. Once you screw up an 091 differential....try finding another.
Just read a thread a while back where 091 cores are going for $500+...simply because after all of these years...most of the ring and pinions are screwed up.
Partly for running the wrong oil....and partly because people just drive them around without ever doing any long term maintenance that may extend their life.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=131231

Cores for the 004's I use are non-existant. I would have been happy at times in the past to pay double that price to get one.
Soon....many of the "bus" drivers may be SOL on tranmissions for any usable price...if you don't stop using the "if it aint broke don't fix-it" defense. Ray
Ray

Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:55 pm

Yep that is the problem and I can tell you that all 002 have spyder wear most bad wear there is no new replacements so you have to work with what you have that is the reality of it. The price is and will go up but I can tell you from experience having to pull apart a trany just for one part then scrap the rest for a little ware you are not in a hurry not have anything left to sell. There is no way to make a 30 pluse year old trany purfect is not going to happen thats the reality of it. You can buy a new 091 from Weddle if you want it purfect and give up on the 002 or any rebuild. The last 091 I did I had to gut 3 to make one and at this time Iam out of 091's to rebuild. I know that defence. I love them when thay come in with a bungie cord on the shifter to keep it in 4th and think Iam not going to charge them core cost .