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clearsurf2001 Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:39 pm

Last weekend (President's Day) there was a sand rail fatality at Glamis. One of the questions surrounding this accident was the performance of "sewn in" type belts.

These are the type that are Y yoke w/shoulder straps sewn in to the lap belt or true 4 point type w/shoulder straps sewn in to the lap belt. 5 point, lock and link, and cam lock do not use sewn in shoulder straps and benefit from a completely different interlocking attachment.

While the investigation continues around this issue ... several major buggy manufacturers and Crow themselves have stepped up. If you have "sewn in" shoulder straps (sewn directly to the lap belt without metal lock and link or camlock) regardless of manufacturer ... contact your seatbelt manufacturer and/or your builder. Crow is responding on this issue RIGHT NOW as are the buggy builders.

Tacoma_Kyle Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:47 pm

I am unclear as to what you are saying. So was there an issue with the sewn in sholder straps?

I am wondering how in proper functioning order hey would fail (if thats what your saying), I mean there are more then those two points on those straps that are sewn in.

clearsurf2001 Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:50 pm

The suspected failure was at the point where the shoulder straps were sewn in to the lap belt. No other attachments were compromised, and no other sewing was suspect.

dr. awsome Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:59 pm

Safer type of belt

Not as safe but still much better than 3 points.

The problem is that the stitching may come loose or tear over time where the "link and lock" or " cam lock" belts don't rely on thread to hold the shoulder belts on. Is this what you are trying to say? I think I got it pretty clear but I just want to make sure.

Skidmark Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:25 am

Yes... that is what he is saying. I don't run anything but 5 point myself.

Good post... thanks for the heads up.

bajaherbie Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:10 am

was alcohol involved? can you drink beer at glamis while in the dunes?

baja5 Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:17 am

Glamis is patrolled pretty good now.Coolers are inspected before you can get to Compitition hill or Olds.However, that doesn't seem to stop idiots from getting hammered and driving 500 Hp 2000 lb cars.And the rangers usually only check cars coming in on sand highway. All you need to do is go around through the dunes.

bajaherbie Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:41 am

no alcohol is allowed in the dunes at little sahara state park here in oklahoma. the rangers check when you enter at the two gates. however, i've seen people walk a cooler in by cutting across the fence behind the campsites.

personally, i'd never drive off-road under the influence.

was the wreck a collision with another vehicle??

jps1145 Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:10 am

What is the difference in the stitching holding the shoulder strap to the lap belt and the stitching holding the shoulder strap to the metal bracket inserted into the buckle?
I would love to see more info on this particular crash. Not that I'm morbidly interested, I'm more interested in the actual failure. What was the impact, speed, etc. I'd like to know why it failed.

jps1145 Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:24 am

bajaherbie wrote: was alcohol involved? can you drink beer at glamis while in the dunes?
From my experience out there, most of the accedents are not always alchohol related. They are more from inexperienced drivers in the dunes. Many new duners are not taught to approach the top of a dune from an angle in order to see the other side before turning down. They will go balls out straight to it and drop off or hit someone coming up the other side.
When I lived out there, I would avoid the big weekends just because of that.

clearsurf2001 Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:47 am

The details of the accident are still under investigation. At this time ... no alcohol was involved, no collision with another vehicle. The vehicle was a high dollar, well built, long travel. Belts were installed correctly. There is debate as to the design of the adjustable seat mounting. The mounting of the seat was not unique and is employed widely in the industry. An alternate seat mounting with no seat adjustment (relying on adjustable pedal mounts) could have (possibly) mitigated the stresses involved in the accident. The buggy was traveling at a high rate of speed (actual speed unknown) in an area close to camped duners (onsite observations cite "too close to camped duners and way too fast"). The buggy hit a "kiddie track" (made by small riders, usually on small quads that create sand berms due to repeated runs in the same track). Buggy was launched "nose up" and initial impact was on the rear (tail stand) followed by end over (endo) cartwheels. Driver was a large male. Seat showed evidence of deformation near upper portion (including headrest), probably resulting from initial tail impact. Deformation of seat could have resulted in excessive slack in belt adjustment. Subsequent cartwheel motions forced driver forward. Belt sewing at point where shoulder strap is sewn to lap belt remains suspect. Failures of metal links or camlocks in this type of accident is unknown.

The larger point here is ... the sewn in type of belt arrangement is suspected. Again ... this is the type that has the shoulder straps sewn in to the lap belt. If you examine the pictures in one of the previous posts ... you can see that the stresses on the sewing would be far greater in this design than the 5 point system. The buggy manufacturers and the belt maker feel strongly enough that the "could be" factor in this accident warrants immediate action.

jps1145 Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:03 am

I'm with you. I can't tell you how many times I've seen some guy hauling ass through the "camping" areas or close by and hit one of those kid tracks at high speed. This happens down at Gordon's a lot in the "Buggy Flats" area. What a bummer.
As you get more info on this will you share it?

clearsurf2001 Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:11 pm

Will do

Jowlz Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:30 pm

NHRA banned Y harnesses last year. Alot of people blamed the Y belts for injuries...but most of the safety folks think the real culprit was harnesses not properly tightened. I wonder if this was the case in this accident.

What brand were the seats the failed? Were they steel framed seats? I wonder how much the seat failure contributed to the death.

clearsurf2001 Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:46 pm

Jowlz ... refer to the lengthly post above. Seats were steel framed, name brand, suspension type. Much speculation about the mounting arrangement, the seat damage, and possible induced slack in the belt from the first tail end impact. Remember ... several manufacturers sell both Y harnesses and true 4 point harnesses with sewn in shoulder straps. If anyone has these sewn in harnesses ... I would contact the manufacturer and discuss this type of accident. I have a Corbeau 4 point harness (not installed) for a single seat MC powered mid-travel project. Their design incorporates the sewn in shoulder straps. I will cut it up and dispose of it. I haven't purchased my belts for my mid-travel 2 seater. This incident seals the deal for me. 5 points all the way.

Nicksan Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:59 pm

This might be the one that your reffering to, There was another fatality also but I think that was a quad.

clearsurf2001 Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:08 pm

That's the one Nik. This accident has started a firestorm with the Glamis faithful. So far the following have weighed in:

Due to the recent failure of a particular type of safety belt several Buggy Manufacturers have stepped up and offered a voluntary recall...
Please check the following announcements to see if your car is covered.
(it should be noted that this is voluntary and that there is no official claim of any kind of defect in the affected belts.)

Sand Cars Unlimited Seat Belt Upgrade

Funco Harness Replacement

All Extreme Performance Car Owners!, SEATBELT RECALL!!!

Fusion Off-road Harness Replacement, manditory

Cathi at Suspensions Unlimited says:
"We have been working with Crow ourselves.
Any Suspensions Unlimited Customers.. feel free to contact us regarding this matter.
Call our shop @ 909-230-9797"

Sand Car Services has graciously offered to perform the Crow upgrade for any one with any car free of charge!

As well as Crow ... the first of the belt manufacturers to step up.

HamburgerBrad Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:44 pm

stuck at the top for all to see

clearsurf2001 Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:44 pm

Thanks Brad

el loco kingo Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:49 am

was this the only death that heppend because of the belts?

how exactly are you supposed to fassen the belts?

is it, lap belts, then shoulder straps?

i know having the belts fassend improperly could result in injury or death, so i want to be clear on the RIGHT way to do it.

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