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Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:15 am

Props to Dave Deal for designing an outstanding wheel.

No Offense Dave Deal or anyone in either camp, DSR or Randar. I'm not here to pick a fight but to point out some facts and my opinions (if im allowed).

DSR have 'ripped' off someone's idea, yes. But its not illegal (immoral maybe, but its a 'dog-eat-dog' world in business) because this design was not patented/copyright/trademarked? yes or no?

There are hundreds, thousands! of designs that are ripped off every year in all types of business, its a fact of life....

If you dont use your brain and patent/copyright/trademarked your idea you only have yourself to blame, maybe you still can?. Personally i would be flattered that someone took my design and actually made a quality wheel. After all it was gathering dust in my garage and i had no intention of producing it.

Who was first Randar or DSR? just to satisfy my curiousity.

There are millions of Famous Steiner's you only need to look the name up in wikipedia. What make you think that these wheels were named in honor of this particular Nazi? If that holds true, then all VW enthuaists displaying the 'iron cross' are glorifying Hitlers Ideology? after all you came up with the design?

And i did some digging and found this on a european forum.

Quote: Rite guys well i can tell you from personal experence that I WOULD NOT buy another set of randars . The 5 spoke copy of the original radar i had on my bus were to be Technical about it... SHITE!

They wouldnt fit an early bay i had to have special rear studs made to go from M14x1.5 which is standars Eb wheel bolt size to M12 cus the randars were made for early bugs and splits . also i hade to shave a shoulder on the front calipers of my Csp kit then have a 6mm spacer made to clear the centre hub .........The rear hubs had to have the snout machined on them and 20mm removed from the length of the driveshafts too

Then to top it off with even after keeping them covered with loads of WD40 the single plate american chrome lasted a year at best before it pitted beyond repair.

Finally the DSRs that early split owned by a mate called ************ in ******* and the cost .........£1500 but i think this included shipping too

But the chrome is outstanding cus its German . I doubt you would get such quality from the USA stuff

Now that was posted by someone who actually had a randar set and his friend had a DSR set.

PS im not here to pick a fight so please dont flame me. Dont believe everything you read but you cant ignore them.

Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:40 am

patents are different then copywrites and trademarks. Try making new VW logo'd anything w/o the owner's (VWOA) consent. Nothing technically against the law so you won't go to jail, but you could get sued and fined if the other party has enough $$ for lawyers

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:50 pm

My set on my oval:
www.derblitzschnellkafer.blogspot.com

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:28 am

[img]
Shot with Canon DIGITAL IXUS 50 at 2007-07-09[/img]

www.derblitzschnellkafer.blogspot.com

Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:01 am

Un-earthing a wheel design that was never going to see the light of day again and putting it into extremely limited production - only to find that someone else copies it, as soon as they notice that there might be a sniff of a profit in it for themselves? Pitiful.

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:40 pm

James D wrote: Un-earthing a wheel design that was never going to see the light of day again and putting it into extremely limited production - only to find that someone else copies it, as soon as they notice that there might be a sniff of a profit in it for themselves? Pitiful.

James D, let me tell the story again-
*I* was the one that, through a fortunate set of circumstances, found the wheel languishing in Dave Deal's basement.
*I* was the one that published the photo in a US-based VW magazine, along with, as I recall, some new in-the-box EMPI radios.
I *do not* manufacture the wheels,
I *do not* have any interest in them whatsoever, other than seeing that my friend Dave Deal gets recognition for being the original designer.
I don't give a damn whether it's monetary compensation, or just a nod of the head to Dave Deal, and I can pretty much assure you, Dave can do without any monetary gains; he's doing okay being an artist (he is one of the prime players in the Disney/Pixar film "Cars", to give you an idea of his talent) Of course, I don't really know anyone, that couldn't use some extra cashish...
8)
but that isn't what I am on the soapbox about, it's just proper recognition, one way or another, for someone's original design. NO, it was NOT patented, why would he go through the trouble of getting a patent on something he had no intention of producing? If it hadn't been for me, being a nosy "automotive photojournalist" that wheel would most likely STILL be hidden in Dave's basement.
One Dave Deal-designed wheel manufacturer, didn't call, e-mail, write, or otherwise attempt any communication with Dave- they just went ahead and made the wheel, and for a while, as I understand it, were calling it their own design.
Another wheel manufacturer took the time, met with Dave, and actually ended up with Dave's blessing to make the wheel, and also ended up with the original prototype that I photographed so long ago.
I am not going to debate quality issues, shipping times, or anything else with either wheel, or any of that, because frankly, I don't care. I just want to see credit, where credit is due. That's ALL.
If you and I had been friends for literally dozens of years, as Dave and I have been, I'd go to bat for you, as well. That's what friends do, for their friends. I'm sure Mr. Deal would have my back, as well, if the situation ever arose that it was needed.
If anyone on here doesn't like that, I'll PayPal you a quarter, so you can call someone who cares.

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:59 pm

This whole thread reminds me of the "Empi/Mr. Bug: King of the Ripoffs" flyer that circulated just before Bug In 32 a couple of years ago... does Mr. Bug now have operatives working in Germany? :lol:

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:02 pm

Hmmm....

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:27 pm

There was never any intent to rip anyone off behind the production of the Steiner wheels. Nor are they named after any nazi philosopher FFS. :roll:

Just a couple of enthusiasts wanting to produce something unique, that would in all probability have never come on the market without their work. They definitely aren´t making a quick buck, or even getting rich making these things, (making only 50 sets probably isn´t the best way to go about making your first million) and as far as I know, they have always been open about where the design came from.

If they were being produced in China by the millions, by people who don´t give a sh1t about VWs, or in fact, probably never even saw one, purely for profit, then it would be a different story. But thats not the case here. Its just two guys, like you or me.

Should Dave Deal recieve credit for the design? Sure, of course. Is there anyone here who doesn´t know that he designed these wheels by now? 8)

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:12 pm

James D wrote: Is there anyone here who doesn´t know that he designed these wheels by now? 8)

If there is, then I guess my work here isn't finished.

It was interesting to read Dave Deal's post, a few pages back, to see how he felt about the whole situation, after all, as we all seem to agree, it WAS his design...

This just in, from one page back-

Just to set the record straight, my good friend Tres Wright posted a comment about Randar Wheels that is not quite accurate. He based it on something I stated to him in an e-mail. At the time, I hadn't heard from Randee for a while and couldn't get hold of him by phone. I said " no Randee, no royalty..." So Tres is totally vindicated, and he was really looking after my best interests. Thank you Tres.

And Thanks to Dave Cormack for his defense of my design, and friendship.

While what Tres posted was technically true at that moment, based on my words to him...Randee of RANDAR WHEELS has my full permission to produce my Iron Cross design wheel, and sell them. We have a deal.
Randee is one of the good guys. The RANDAR version does look better than the kraut rip-off because it is a hand crafted design, following my sculptured work, and it is The Real Deal after all.

The Germans, Boris and Doris, are the bad guys....That's what I call people who steal from you----counterfit Rip-offs.

If you purchase a set of UNAUTHORIZED wheels from the Huns, my sincere and personal wish for you is that you spin a main bearing at the next big VW event, far from home.

Dave Deal

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:29 pm

James D wrote: There was never any intent to rip anyone off behind the production of the Steiner wheels. Nor are they named after any nazi philosopher FFS. :roll:

Just a couple of enthusiasts wanting to produce something unique, that would in all probability have never come on the market without their work. They definitely aren´t making a quick buck, or even getting rich making these things, (making only 50 sets probably isn´t the best way to go about making your first million) and as far as I know, they have always been open about where the design came from.

If they were being produced in China by the millions, by people who don´t give a sh1t about VWs, or in fact, probably never even saw one, purely for profit, then it would be a different story. But thats not the case here. Its just two guys, like you or me.

Should Dave Deal recieve credit for the design? Sure, of course. Is there anyone here who doesn´t know that he designed these wheels by now? 8)

I highlighted the portion that seems most applicable to your general indifference towards the fact that the wheels were made without one iota of permission. And I second Dave C's post.

Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:48 am

James D wrote: Just a couple of enthusiasts wanting to produce something unique, that would in all probability have never come on the market without their work.

but they are in the market now under the designer's permission, and now they have to compete against their knock offs

Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:42 am

I bet they´re scared stiff of two guys on another continent making only 50 sets of wheels that cost more than the copies.

Still, I suppose none of you "moral high ground" types have ever had a set of knock off Empi fives or Eights, Fuchs, Mahles, Radars (!) BRMS, Centreline copies, Sprintstars or whatever?

I suppose you all went out of your way to discover the name of the designer, and sent him a royalty cheque, even though the copyright on the design had long expired? You did, didn´t you? Yes, I though so.

Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:08 am

You're right, James D, I DID have a set of repop EMPI 5 spokes, but I got them off the car in a few months, when my real, restored, original,
Rad *E* r wheels were done, and that's what I have now.
Might interest you to know, that I have the full story of the BRM's and the 5 spokes, and Sprint Stars, straight from Joe Vittone..
Never heard of Joe Vittone?
Figures.

:roll:

Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:14 pm

Dave wrote: You're right, James D, I DID have a set of repop EMPI 5 spokes, but I got them off the car in a few months, when my real, restored, original,
Rad *E* r wheels were done, and that's what I have now.

Oh, i´m sorry. I didn´t realise this was a pissing contest about how much cool stuff you own and how many famous people you´ve met.

And you´d never condone anyone to use those "rip-off" (your words) Randars now would you?

Dave wrote: Might interest you to know, that I have the full story of the BRM's and the 5 spokes, and Sprint Stars, straight from Joe Vittone..
Never heard of Joe Vittone?
Figures.

:roll:

Well you do make a lot of assumptions now don´t you?
Figures - because you do know what they say about assumptions don´t you?
:roll:

Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:12 pm

James D wrote: I suppose you all went out of your way to discover the name of the designer, and sent him a royalty cheque, even though the copyright on the design had long expired? You did, didn´t you? Yes, I though so.

You make a lot of ASSumptions, don't you?
Having a battle of wits, with an unarmed person, is pointless, and a waste of time. You'll never get it.
Say hello to Boris and Doris for me.

Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:23 pm

Dave wrote: James D wrote: I suppose you all went out of your way to discover the name of the designer, and sent him a royalty cheque, even though the copyright on the design had long expired? You did, didn´t you? Yes, I though so.

You make a lot of ASSumptions, don't you?
Having a battle of wits, with an unarmed person, is pointless, and a waste of time. You'll never get it.
Say hello to Boris and Doris for me.

How disappointing - resorting to abuse finally. I should have expected as much I suppose.

Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:22 pm

James D wrote: I bet they´re scared stiff of two guys on another continent making only 50 sets of wheels that cost more than the copies.

Still, I suppose none of you "moral high ground" types have ever had a set of knock off Empi fives or Eights, Fuchs, Mahles, Radars (!) BRMS, Centreline copies, Sprintstars or whatever?

I suppose you all went out of your way to discover the name of the designer, and sent him a royalty cheque, even though the copyright on the design had long expired? You did, didn´t you? Yes, I though so.

This comment drew my attention. As for me, yeah, I've got a set of repro Empi 8's that I'm currently trying to sell. As for whether the Rocket company(the brand of my particular set) produced them without permission from the original designer, I have no idea.
If you can cough up some authenticated, genuine proof that this the case, then you'll have made a point, otherwise my thoughts on your business ethnics stand firm.

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:33 am

so where can i get a set of these :lol: :lol: :lol:

Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:30 am

Now its time to tell some things from our side.

My name is Boris Schmidt I live in the south of Germany and I am not a Fascist or Nazi ! Sorry but to tell me something like that make me very angry ! I am one of the builders of the Der Steiner Rad wheel.

-Summer 2000 we saw the picture of the wheel that Dave Cormack published. My friend an long time Kaefer club buddy Andreas and me discussed to produce two sets, one for his oval and one for my 64 squareback, we want to make them from solid aluminium blocks. But the costs are too high and we stopped the plans.
After we had some time to develop a cast aluminium centre we give a milling form builder the job to build us a form. The costs are high and we planed to build 50 sets of this Iron Cross wheel to finance our dream to ride the nicest wheel on this planet ( our opinion ) on our own cars. We spend hundreds of hours for construction, to build tools for machining and make programmes for the cnc machines. During that time we try to contact Dave Cormack because we want to know more about the story behind the picture and some information about the man who have this wheel in his basement, but we didn’t get any answer. Than we ask a friend of us who work for a German VW magazine to contact him. He do that but I don’t know why but we can’t get any news for a few month.
- February 2001, we get the milling form for the aluminium centre and send a picture to the Volksworld magazine, they published the picture in the march 2001 issue. After a few days I get a phone call from Mr Dave Deal regarding the prototype wheel that was published in a British magazine. Mr Deal was very angry and he told me that he has the rights for the design of the wheel we want to produce. He told me that there is a man, his name was Morton, a Scandinavian, and he have a deal with him to build that wheel. I told him that we try to contact Mr Cormac to get his phone number a few month and that we spend a lot of money and time to be able to produce that wheels and that we cant stop that regarding this fact. He was very angry and I get it too because we tried to get his contact with no sucess. We find out that this situation is very bad for him and for us and that we need a solution that will be good for both sides.
- March 2001, in the night before the Volksworld Show in London we finished the first 5 prototypes mount it on Andreas oval and drive directly the 1000 km to the show to present the wheels. There we met Morton and he was sad that we came out first. But, and that is a fact that Morton see in the same way, the construction sheets he showed us have a lot mistakes and he don’t know it to construct, plan and build a car wheel. We say to him that in fact that he want a set for his car we will give him a huge off to the regular price but he don’t want. During the show Andreas and me discuss how we can solve the problem with Dave Deal and back home I ring him up to find a solution. After a long call to the States we both together find one:

He give us the right to build 50 wheel sets (200 pices) and we have to build him a free set for his baja bug and bring them personally to him to the States and he will get 10% profit sharing for every US sold set or become the general distributor for north America ( including Canada).
He told me that he is happy to have a set of his wheels on the baja bug he won a baja race in the past and, that after that long time his wheels where build. He told me that he found out that we are not the bad guys he suggested when he saw the prototype wheel in the Volksworldmagazine He invited us to stay at his house when we come. We decide that he write the contract and send it us to read and sign. And that he give us the measurements of the wheels that we can build his free set.

- Please note from our side, in the beginning we saw a picture in the size of one inch to one inch of the wheel and we don’t get any support. The wheel we build have five black faces with a polished border. And the form of the faces are a association of an old German medal, conferred hundreds of thousand times in the past since 1813. To build a set for free and bring them to the States means costs of about 5000.00 US $, to bear in mind the 10 % profit sharing for every sold set. Money to pay to someone who don’t have a copyright only the fact that he is the man who design a nearly looking wheel in the 60’s
But that was the deal and in the first it was our common decision ! We don’t want to produce our dream wheel with an unserious beginning and Mr Deal don’t want to see that some guys have a business with his idea for less

- After that telephone call we didn’t get anything, no mail, fax or letter. We try to contact him via phone (speak with his phone box) and mail – no reply from that time till today. Andreas met Mr Cormack at Hessisch Oldendorf or Bad Camberg, I don’t know it exactly, and tell him that we are trying hard to get in contact to Mr Deal regarding the accord and he said to Andreas that he will give Mr Deal a call when he is back. He took some photos from the wheels and tell him that he like the wheels and if we send him high quality pictures there is a opportunity to bring a feature in Hot VW. But sadly nothing happen and all our attempts to get in contact with Mr. Deal were in vain.
Today we know what happen. A short time after I had that phone call with Mr. Deal, Mr. Randee the man who build one of the Rader copies on the marked came up and want to produce the Eisenkreuzrad too. He live in the same area like Mr Cormack and Mr. Deal and to have a conversation with one of them he can driving there by car. He is an US resident and not a far away ( quotation) “ Kraut “. It is much more easy to deal with a guy from the neighbourhood !

- We say, and that means Andreas and me, that we have a deal with Mr. Deal and he is the one who break an engagement! And he supports the Man who produce copies of our Wheel. The first running Eisenkreuzrad is made by Schwarzwald Performance, the company we founded for the wheel production and it’s on the road since March 2001.

The Name „Der Steiner Rad“:

And that fact Mr Deal knows since our second call in 2001. It is unbelievable for me that he is trying to bring us and our customers in that political edge!

Shame on you Mr. Deal for that.

Sorry but everybody who know me personally and my political life know what for a strong hurt this is!

The reason why we use the name Der Steiner Rad is the old movie “Steiner the Iron Cross” with the actor James Coburn. He acs as the Oberfeldwebel Steiner in that movie and he show the viewers that not all German soldiers during the second world war where anti-Semitic unscrupulous killers and don’t have the Fascistic feeling in their minds.
Building a wheel with that style make it necessary to bring a connotation that shows this, especially when we keep in mind that the Bug is the KDF Wagen . It is a tightrope walk to use a German Eisenkreuz wheel on a KDF-Wagen. Especially if you be an European resident.

Mr Deal, the story you write here is not so serious. You say that Rudolf Steiner was a Nazi.
Ok let’s have a look to this man and founder of the Waldorfschools.
Try this link and press “Waldorf education” it is written in english:

http://www.waldorfschule.info/front_content.php?changelang=3

You can read that Steiner died 1925! That was 8 years before Hitler come into power!

And you can read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_schools

That there are existing 958 Waldorschools worldwide, 134 of them in the US….Are they Nazi schools ???
Please abandon the attempt that we are the bad guys and our customers are Nazi’s.
That is not the right way to solve this problem.

Please forgive me my bad English…I am a German guy and it is very difficult to write that in a foreign language.

All the years we don’t write about our side of the story because we think that a forum is not the right place for this kind of communication. Mr Cormack writes this things about us and it seems like he knows us for years.
Sorry, he met Andreas one time and he had the chance to tell him his point of view, he didn’t ! He was a friendly man that like our DSR wheel in this moment, not the one who write that things.
I think he wrote enough about the story that he knows only from one side. We and Georg Otto tried it a lot of times to get in contact with him. He was the only person that had the chance to bring us and Mr Deal together before this situation becoming so bad, he failed and now he is trying to publish his own story. And of course if he want, he will find us or contact us to hear the other side and find his own meaning. But maybe he have not enough time and that was not his job, ok but please stop to tell lies about us that is not fine!
Please stop that !

To our world wide customers, please don’t think that we are Nazi’s. You have the nicest wheel in the world and if you drive your ride you can be sure that you have the original and first Eisenkreuz wheel, the Der Steiner Rad!
We stand for international understanding and we don’t think bad about other people where ever they are from. We visit a lot of foreign countries every year and we want to meet other peoples and have fun together with our common hobby, the old Volkswagen. You bought a product that is produced from enthusiasts for enthusiasts. And all of our customers like the fine quality of our wheels.
Thank you, and that is especially for the forum members of thesamba, that you stand with us and write down your experience with us. A satisfied customer is the best commendation for us.

To the forum users, we don’t want to start a new discussion who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. But we think that nobody has the right to write all this lies about us and nobody has the right to suggest our customers that they driving Nazi wheels.
Everybody has the right to have his own opinion about that situation and who want to buy a set of our wheels is free to order. If there are something you can’t go with or you need more information please contact us or let it and buy another wheel from the marked. I suggested to copy all the emails from the past that we send to Mr. Cormack and Mr. Deal, write down the telephone numbers we use or publish the photo of Mr Deals baja bug he send us, to show everybody that the things I wrote down are the true. But this is not a court room it is a place to discuss things or get information from others. So please see this as a effort to inform you about our side of this situation.
Thanks for reading and have fun with you Volkswagen.

Boris Schmidt
Germany