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Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:56 pm

Has anyone put a complete 944 suspension under their Super?

I was hoping to hear from someone who had do the whole thing to find out:

What is the best 944 model (early, late, base, turbo, etc.)?
What modifications are needed to make it fit?

Also, Has anyone seen a Big Red conversion for 944's?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:01 pm

Giving up on the Ghia and dreaming big on a Super?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

I bought the parts, but haven't done it yet.

There are two types of trailing arms- some are regular sheet metal arms that look identical to the VW arms. The others are aluminum, and are slightly wider (you would push your wheels out just a bit- I think I remember it was like 3/4" per side?)

Most people who do the conversion just change the hubs out and keep their VW arms. It's a lot simpler than compressing the spring plates, etc. I'm not sure if the stub axle is the same or not...

One thing to keep in mind- the turbo and non-turbo cars had different calipers.. if you go with the turbo calipers, you can't run 15" wheels as the brakes are too big. You need 16"+ wheels.

Another "gotcha" is that the e-brake cables are different. I've heard of people crimping the VW cables to the Porsche cables... and I know one place makes a cable adapter kit (vdubcustoms?). I think a place in Europe makes some custom cables that just drop right in as well.

For the front- it LOOKS like it would be a drop-in, but the suspension geometry wouldn't be right. Kerscher makes some special ball joints and other goodies to get things to work. That being said, a lot of people say the 944 brakes are just way too big up front, and that the huge increase in unsprung weight just isn't worth it. I remember a thread on Germanlook, and people were going nuts trying to figure out which master cylinder to use to get the brake bias to work out right- I'm not sure if they ever did.

Hope that helps
- David

Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:01 pm

Icy wrote: Giving up on the Ghia and dreaming big on a Super?

Nope, just planning ahead a few years for my next project. My Ghia project taught me a lot. Firstly, have a well thought out and detailed build strategy. My Ghia didn't really need that much to be the basic daily driver I want, so building it tactically isn't really an issue, but I know I want to go for a certain look with my Super Beetle project (German look). So, anyway, I figure if I start thinking about it now, and get all of my options evaluated then when I go to start building, it should all go a bit smoother than my Ghia.

Incidentally, I also learned never to buy another mans project.

Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:10 pm

Oh yeah, and you would need the 1303 front suspension. You can swap the 1303 bits onto a 1302... but keep it in mind if you haven't bought the Super yet.

- David

Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:12 pm

My 72 use to use 944t components. After about the 3rd reincarnation it doesn't anymore. Lets start in the front:

The 944 strut is completely different to the beetle's in relation to the upper mounting bolt pattern. I've heard of only 1 person using the 944 struts and that is Yetibone on the GL forums (and he had to change out the spring and use a weird spacer to clear the tire....some bad press on that one....search the GL forums for a little cat fight between Superman and Yetibone)....but I may be misinformed. If you really want to use 944 brakes on your beetle you will need to get the following parts:

EASY WAY
-control arms and spindles from a late 73 and up super (2 bolt spindle to strut....balljoint fits under the spindle).
-944 rotors and calipers (944 turbos are fine....I'm using those on my car).
-Topline Maxxs or Kerscher struts
-VDubcustoms hubs (you'll be able to use beetle bearings) and caliper brackets.
-944 master cylinder

This is a bolt on affair with no real issues. But you will have some issues running the lines for the 944 m/c since its different than the beetle's unit. You will have to fashion up dust shields (I will be using a set of 1303 disc brake dust shields when I get around to adding them).

HARD WAY
-control arms and spindles from a late 73 and up super (2 bolt spindle to strut....balljoint fits under the spindle)
-944 rotors, bearings, spindles, dust shields and calipers (944 turbos are fine....I'm using those on my car). In regards to turbo's....anything after 86 (rotor will sit over the hub.....prior to late 86 the hub sat over the rotor) will not have the hole for the speedo cable and will not attach to the strut due to the hole pattern being different.
-Topline or Kerscher struts.....Kerscher's are better since the have the ability to adjust the camber (you'll need it). Topline's Maxxs (you'll have to slot the top bolt of the 944 spindle and remove a LITTLE material from the spindle to have the camber adjustment).
-Kerscher's 17mm balljoints (don't even bother sleeving the spindles for 15mm balljoints....if you do let me know so I'm not near you when you drive your car)
-Topline's Camber+ bushings (you'll need them)
-VW crash bolts or H&R camber bolts (they are the same....and....you'll need them)
-944 master cylinder

No matter what anyone says.....this is NOT a bolt on affair in the front if you use the 944 stuff. Once you've installed all the above you will notice that your wheels may look like this: \ / That is the little problem with the 944 stuff. You will need to be able to dial-in ALOT of camber adjustment to compensate hence the need the the slot, crash bolts and camber + bushings. Even with all the above pieces I wasn't able to get my wheels aligned properly (but it was really close). I've heard of people making their own camber plates to dial-in the much needed camber to compensate for the 944's spindle.

BACK

This is a bolt on affair and you don't have to use the 944 control arms at all. Just get your hands on the following parts:

-944 rotors, hubs, backing plates, caliper mounting bracket, ebrake hardware (located inside the rotor).

You'll have to fashion up an ebrake cable using tidbits from the 944 and beetle (Kerscher has the crimp end as well as the modded ebrake tube leading up to the ebrake at the wheel).

The easiest way to do this is to purchase an adapter for the beetle cable from Vdubcustoms so you don't have to crimp your beetle cable.

Using the 944 stuff your wheel will push out real close to the outside of the fender using 235-45-17's but use a slightly smaller tire and you will not have any issues. If you use the 944's trailing arms (aluminum ones) they can push the wheel out an 1" or more depending on the year of the arms (they were different lengths).

What I did was slightly different since I kept snapping the ebrake cables. I used the 944 N/A rotor, CB Performance 5 lug rear hub (porsche pattern), caliper bracket, ebrake cable, and ford Mustang Cobra calipers. The Cobra calipers are the same as the VW calipers being offered on the rear disc brake kits. But the Cobra's are made for vented rotors and fit the 944 N/A rotor just fine. By using the CB hub the wheel comes inbound slightly so the 235-45-17 will fit with plenty to spare. You'll have to ground off a little on the bump stop and may have to swap a bolt on the spring plate. You'll also have to modify one of the holes on the caliper bracket to a counter-sunk hole so it doesn't interfer with the ebrake cable.

Just a note....the 944 N/A calipers are more than enough (compare them in actual physical size as well as the piston size and you'll get the picture). The turbo (4 piston....I had this setup on my 2nd reincarnation) is absolutely frightening for panic stops ((I could probably do an endo if I just disengaged the rear brakes and had everything go to the front)). The combo I currently use is still scary and is alittle on the touchy side...but not as bad as using the 4 piston units at all corners.

Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:23 am

A friend of mine once told me that Rabbit A-arms and the strut assy will bolt right up to a Super. Now, is there a year range for this or will it fit all Supers? He said that was a good way to convert a Super to better handling and front disc brakes.

Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:51 am

The rabbit a-arm I have not heard of anyone using. But the rabbit strut I've seen a picture of one that worked for a super. Check Superbeetlesonly.com....but it will be a long search since the subject came up here and there. What the strut was all about was a cheap, narrow spring, adjustable strut (to fit tall/fat rims) project by superman. It was a standard rabbit strut with an H&R coil-over kit that had collars to adjust the ride height (similar to Kerscher's units). It was a very nice homemade strut and should be something that is made state side.

As a side note....the Super's control arm has only 1 attachment point to the body (A-arms usually have 2 points...not counting at the balljoint). What ever setup you rig you will still have to allow for the sway bar's attachment somewhere. I think the 1303 suspension has proven itself as a workable suspension considering it's used on the BaderGhia rather than a full custom coilover setup (see the BaderGhia website under the Volksworld's article).

In regards to BigReds on a Super its been done. But unless you autocross or race the car you are talking about a severe over kill in braking power (and alot of $$$$$). Does it look sweet.....hell yeah!!!! But after you try out the 944 N/A single pots you will understand that anything larger is simply for looks.

Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:55 pm

Icy,

IIRC the 944 uses a different balljoint than the rabbit.
Bigger

Rob

Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:03 pm

doing 944 turbo(951) rear arms,brakes and coilovers on my notchback
check out www.germanlook.com < sorry if its a repost i didn't read the whole thread

Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:42 pm

EvilOval:

What year(s) 944's are the best for bolting on?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:51 pm

944's from 83 thru 85.5 n/a are your best bet....they have the spindle that will bolt straight to the super's strut. Your only drawbacks are that you'll have to deal with the camber issue (crash bolts, camber + kit....best bet are camber plates). You'll also have to get Topline's flip-it kit to mount the tierod to the spindle.

Also note....if you opt to use 944 components and stock fenders you will be somewhat limited on wheels. You'll be able to use wheels from any porsche up to 89 without using spacers. After 89 (boxster, later 911's and Caymans) you'll have to figure on the right spacer to mount the rims. Turns out that after 89 Porsche changed the center hole's diameter. So, if you try to bolt a Boxster wheel on to your 944's hub you'll find out that it will hit the dust cap 1st. Take that off and then it'll hit the hub's center. I had to use a 3/8" spacer on mine to clear the hubs and mount the wheel (and that barely worked).

Because of the issues involved I'm removing all my 944 stuff and installing custom hubs and 1303 suspension components. The only thing on the front end of the car that is Porsche is the rotor and caliper (check the gallery under my name to see the latest pics).

Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:10 pm

What year would you recommend for the rear?
I've read some years have a closer offset to stock.

Also for my brakes this is who I'm hitting up:
http://www.vdubengineering.com/products/brake.htm

Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:21 pm

From what I've read, the early steel and alloy ('86 only) arms are the same width as the type 1 arms; however, the 944 rear brakes add 22mm to each side. The early aluminum arms ('86 only) will also add 22 mm per side (from the brakes) IF you remove the spacer. Late arms ('87+) will add 72mm per side.

Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:41 pm

With 944 spindles the stock Super ball joint is too small.
You need to use a Kerscher ball joints for this application.

Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:09 pm

For the rears I'd just grab the componenets from a 83-85.5 N/A car. You don't need the arms if you go with the single pot calipers. And you could fab a caliper mount to work if you went with turbos.

If you want to use the aluminum arms you will be getting wider fenders. I've heard the 86 was the magic year for the narrower alum but I think those still add some track (87 and up do indeed add more than 2" to your track per side). But I cannot confirm the overall length/track increase from the 86 units. The rear setup will add a little track (if your only using the brakes and not the arms with them). Just make sure you don't use the spacers and your wheels will fit (depending on the wheel). I've never bothered looking into changing the arms out since there doesn't seem to be any benefits from using the arms that couldn't be made up someother way.

Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:42 am

Check out this thread:
http://www.vdubengineering.com/technical/conversions.htm
Tons of info.

Found out these guys will make a custom hub for the front to mount up the 944 disk without crazy mods to the spindle.

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:21 pm

If anybody is still doing this... I have 3-4 complete sets of early 944 suspensions complete (arms and spindles) with calipers etc for $400.