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mikelars Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:21 pm

The fit with the cutout of the rear apron is really good. Not sure I want to go to a 4:1 merged with the squirrely muffler going off back toward the passenger side…


David Raistrick Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:00 am

mikelars wrote: Ok, so you are talking about this one?

https://store.vintagespeed.com.tw/Stainless-Steel-...p201392897

If I use that on a 1904 with stock valve size (dual port) and 218 cam, could it be quieter than the VS Superflow without totally killing my power?

I know it is all hypothetical - but any educated guess helps…


Looks like VS has revamped their lineup - and changed the naming - since I bought mine in '12 (and hey - look at that - 9 years old and still running strong! I'd have gone through 5-7 stock german units in that time...except I'd have pushed them until they were completely rotten...). The old "sport, standard tailpipe" was the closest to stock they had (left exit tailpipe). This looks like it's been replaced with the "classic sport" and they've added some true-stock style systems.

Unless you're running high rpm (north of the fan-robs-power limit around 4500-5000), you're probably not going to see any significant difference between the sport and the superflow - and VS isn't giving much detail about the physical differences to judge by. The pure stock style ("110mm") would probably not hurt much either.

You could ping the VS team (they used to be responsive, years ago...) and ask them what the decibel vs horsepower/torque difference might be between the 3 on an engine like yours......

dgsaz Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:06 am

mikelars wrote: The fit with the cutout of the rear apron is really good. Not sure I want to go to a 4:1 merged with the squirrely muffler going off back toward the passenger side…



Here's a thread on the same subject. Some very good, understable information.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=753388&highlight=dgsaz

dgsaz

mikelars Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:36 pm

I am starting to think maybe my exhaust is “too big” for my engine build. I have a 1904 with dual Weber 40 IDF and dual heads with stock valve size. But the Vintage Speed muffler is this one with the 63mm tailpipe:

https://store.vintagespeed.com.tw/CLASSIC-SUPER-FLOW-VW-SPLIT-WINDOW-BUS-EXHAUST-SYSTEM-p87513434

SKU 155-706-052SF

I am wondering if this muffler is making the bus louder than it needs to be. Any thoughts if a hideaway muffler with a 1.5 inch 4:1 merge collector (either sidewinder or straight out the back) might be able to help quiet down the bus? I would gladly sell the VS and swap in a merge with hideaway or custom muffler if it would make it quieter with the same power.

Also, does anyone have the “stock lookalike” version from Vintage Speed? It says good up to 90hp, which is likely about what I have got. I would consider switching to this if I thought it were quieter with same or similar power:

https://store.vintagespeed.com.tw/Stainless-Steel-...p201392897

Unfortunately you can’t try it out without coughing up the $

mikelars Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:12 pm

Restored a 1966 license plate for my ‘66 Split Bus:

1. Stripped it down to bare metal
2. Fixed minor bends
3. Cleaned with mineral spirits
4. Primed with etch primer
5. Sprayed 3 coats of black automotive gloss (allowed to dry hard)
6. Sprayed 3 coats of “caterpillar yellow” over the black (allowed to dry medium)
7. Used wet sandpaper and rubbing compound to “reveal” black lettering
8. Performed a final scrub with rubbing compound

Before and After


AS350driver Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:03 pm

Painted and installed proper 15” bus wheels on my ‘64 13W.















LAGrunthaner Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:44 am

Wow mikelars, you did an outstanding job. Looking forward to seeing it on your bus.

mikelars wrote: Restored a 1966 license plate for my ‘66 Split Bus:

1. Stripped it down to bare metal
2. Fixed minor bends
3. Cleaned with mineral spirits
4. Primed with etch primer
5. Sprayed 3 coats of black automotive gloss (allowed to dry hard)
6. Sprayed 3 coats of “caterpillar yellow” over the black (allowed to dry medium)
7. Used wet sandpaper and rubbing compound to “reveal” black lettering
8. Performed a final scrub with rubbing compound

Before and After


aa390392 Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:02 am

Excellent job on the plates,
The bus look great as well...big difference with truck wheels.

dgsaz Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:43 pm

mikelars wrote: The fit with the cutout of the rear apron is really good. Not sure I want to go to a 4:1 merged with the squirrely muffler going off back toward the passenger side…




As I mentioned previously, my engine and yours are very similar. I think the Super Flow is larger than needed, perhaps to a performance deficit. I think your engine would be best supported by the VS Sport as shown above.

With regards to sound, I think you will find the VS Sport muffler to be quieter.

My 4/1 sounded like a Harley, the VS sounds like a Porsche 912. They are similar in design.



Here's where I'll get myself slapped around for giving engine advise without reeeeealy knowing what I'm talking about but what the hell. It won't be advise, just information.

Here's the graph for your engine as I understand it currently:



I make the assumption that you are running 1.1 ratio rockers.

Then I changed 3 things on your engine.

The exhaust is 1 5/8 - 4/1 with muffler. Changed to 1 3/8 with muffler.
Rocker arms changed to 1.25 RR.

Last and probably most important. Buy some L-3 heads from ACI and replace the current heads. There are lots of ways to go but I have first hand knowledge of these. These are stock size valves but the heads flow much better than stock.

Here's the graph with the changes and an overlay.





It appears I loaded the photos in the wrong order. You should be able to figure out what's what. Your current engine is on the bottom and the revised engine is on top. Opps

dgsaz

dgsaz Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:50 pm

mikelars wrote: The fit with the cutout of the rear apron is really good. Not sure I want to go to a 4:1 merged with the squirrely muffler going off back toward the passenger side…




Check this table on displacement to HP.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6415575

dgsaz

mikelars Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:34 pm

I am trying to figure out what I have as far as Heads - what is the difference between L3 and VW Dual Ports? I have these from AA

1 x VW 1600 Dual Port Cylinder Heads, Stainless Steel Valves 35.5X32 "Pair" (sku: 500 400 85B X2)
Bore Size : 92 Bore

https://aapistons.com/products/new-vw-1600-dual-port-cylinder-head-35-5x32

Are the L3 the duals with 40/35 rather than 35/32?

dgsaz Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:11 pm

mikelars wrote: I am trying to figure out what I have as far as Heads - what is the difference between L3 and VW Dual Ports? I have these from AA

1 x VW 1600 Dual Port Cylinder Heads, Stainless Steel Valves 35.5X32 "Pair" (sku: 500 400 85B X2)
Bore Size : 92 Bore

https://aapistons.com/products/new-vw-1600-dual-port-cylinder-head-35-5x32

Are the L3 the duals with 40/35 rather than 35/32?

The L3 heads I was referring to were these:

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/ACN-Stocker-Plus-Dual-Port-Cylinder-Heads-35-X-32-p/l3-heads-pair.htm

mikelars Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:57 pm

Is the difference in the porting then? I have 35.5/32 dual port heads, and am not sure what the difference is between mine and the L3s on ACN. The L3s flow better but have the same valve size and DP?

dgsaz Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:58 pm

mikelars wrote: I am trying to figure out what I have as far as Heads - what is the difference between L3 and VW Dual Ports? I have these from AA

1 x VW 1600 Dual Port Cylinder Heads, Stainless Steel Valves 35.5X32 "Pair" (sku: 500 400 85B X2)
Bore Size : 92 Bore

https://aapistons.com/products/new-vw-1600-dual-port-cylinder-head-35-5x32

Are the L3 the duals with 40/35 rather than 35/32?

The last graphs I posted were using the wrong cam.

I ran the info again with just a change in heads, all thing other than that are the same. It appears that the cam (218) likes the extra flow of the L3 heads.

I ran different exhaust sizes and the 1 1/2 tested best. Again, that's a 4/1 with a muffler. Here are two more graphs, your current engine as built, your current engine with L3 heads. Pretty impressive.



and


Reversed the pictures, again.

dgsaz

mikelars Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:04 pm

Interesting. Can you run it with 40/35 heads just to see? So the L3 with 35.5/32 put me at 109 peak HP - wondering if 40/35 makes any difference - if I were to swap out the heads and leave my exhaust.

I have 1 1/2 inch performance heater boxes and VS SuperFlow - so I am thinking maybe the heads are limiting me?

dgsaz Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:06 pm

mikelars wrote: Is the difference in the porting then? I have 35.5/32 dual port heads, and am not sure what the difference is between mine and the L3s on ACN. The L3s flow better but have the same valve size and DP?

It's in the porting. You could take your existing heads to someone who knows the ins and outs of hand porting and I would think you could meet the performance of the L3's. You will have to add H/D springs and a really good valve job.

Go poke around in the high performance forum. There's a ton of information over there. Search "basic porting" see what comes up.

dgsaz

dgsaz Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:22 pm

mikelars wrote: Interesting. Can you run it with 40/35 heads just to see? So the L3 with 35.5/32 put me at 109 peak HP - wondering if 40/35 makes any difference - if I were to swap out the heads and leave my exhaust.

I have 1 1/2 inch performance heater boxes and VS SuperFlow - so I am thinking maybe the heads are limiting me?

Without a doubt.

Here's the numbers with 40/35 heads. (L-3 stock valve size on the right)

112.2 Hp @ 5500 RPM vs 109.3 @ 5500
119.8 lb/lp @ 4500 RPM vs 122.7 @ 4000

I used these heads. The performance guys speak highly of these.

https://www.cbperformance.com/category-s/387.htm

The bigger the valves the higher the RPM to get power. While you picked up a couple HP you would lose torque in about the same amount.

dgsaz

dgsaz Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:39 pm

mikelars wrote: Interesting. Can you run it with 40/35 heads just to see? So the L3 with 35.5/32 put me at 109 peak HP - wondering if 40/35 makes any difference - if I were to swap out the heads and leave my exhaust.

I have 1 1/2 inch performance heater boxes and VS SuperFlow - so I am thinking maybe the heads are limiting me?

Here's what ACN says about the 218 cam:


Web Cam Type 1 Camshaft, Grind 218, 1.1 or 1.25 Rockers, 00-382 is designed for 1.1 and 1.25 rockers, and it's specs are .455" Valve Lift with 1.1 Rockers, 280 degrees of advertised duration, and 242 degrees of duration at .050" checking clearance. This is an awesome turbo cam in turbocharged street engines when ground on a 112 Lobe Separation angle! For a Type 1 get this on a 105LC. This is also a great choice for bus and type 3 engines in the 1800 - 2100 cc range.

We refer to this cam as the "Turbo Plus" cam. This cam likes good flowing heads, and is a FANTASTIC cam for mild turbo engines when used with a 112 Lobe Center. It's also great for Baja Bugs and Class 9 SCORE cars. The cam looks like it's aggressive due to the pointy lobe, but it's actually not. This cam just doesn't hold the valve open at full lift for very long, which gives some people the impression that it's "aggressive". This is a great bus cam for small and medium sized engines (Mild strokers)!

This cam works fine even with stock heads, but it's performance is much better with some porting, and especially if larger valves are used. Expect a power band from 1000 to 5500 RPMs, the more head work and carburetion the better the top end will be.

We recommend HD single springs for 1.1 rockers, and dual springs or beehives for 1.25 rockers. Use a compression ratio of 7.75-8.25:1 in Type 2s and Type 3s, or 8.75-9:1 in Type 1s.

If you choose to use this cam with 1.25 rockers, you will get another 2-300 RPMs at the expense of valve train life.

Personally I would stay with stock valve size because it's a bus. That's my take.

dgsaz

mikelars Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:18 pm

Ok. I am an idiot because I bought the AA stock dual port heads when I should have bought the L3s - the price is similar - but I did not know the difference as a newbie engine builder. That being said, my engine runs great 10000 miles in, but I wish I had gotten the L3s because I think that was what was recommended to me anyway…. Would have matched my cam, performance heater boxes and VS SuperFlow exhaust better…

mikelars Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:45 am

Here is the restored license plate in place…



I think I am gravitating toward some new Panchito heads and 1.25 rockers to better take advantage of the dual Weber 40 IDF carbs, performance 1 1/2 heater boxes, 218 cam and SuperFlow exhaust. I think I bottlenecked my engine by selecting the wrong heads (I didn’t know the difference between L3s and regular Dual Port AA 500s.

Oh well, $700+ mistake…



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