TheSamba.com :: View topic - And so it begins

Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:57 am

Congrats on completing the swap, Chester. Following your thread has been very interesting. I like the EJ22T idea too, btw. Seems like the most Japanese 'bang for your buck'.

Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:18 pm

ChesterKV wrote:

I'm actually toying with the idea of an EJ22T but that would require a whole new (used) engine and wiring harness; so, not cheap.

- Chester

I've been looking for a donor vehicle online (but due to lack of funding haven't acted on anything yet), but have not seen any EJ22T engines out there... How common are these engines? I have seen what some people have called an EJ20T, is that a viable option? If I had my way, I'd opt for the turbo myself if I can find one. I live at 8000 feet in the Eastern Sierra, and will be driving on some pretty steep grades.

Any advice on where one should look to find the EJ22T, and what models they were installed in?

-ken

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:31 pm

WonkoTheSane wrote: ChesterKV wrote:

I'm actually toying with the idea of an EJ22T but that would require a whole new (used) engine and wiring harness; so, not cheap.

- Chester

I've been looking for a donor vehicle online (but due to lack of funding haven't acted on anything yet), but have not seen any EJ22T engines out there... How common are these engines? I have seen what some people have called an EJ20T, is that a viable option? If I had my way, I'd opt for the turbo myself if I can find one. I live at 8000 feet in the Eastern Sierra, and will be driving on some pretty steep grades.

Any advice on where one should look to find the EJ22T, and what models they were installed in?

-ken

Essentially, they are HARD to find because not very many were ever sold in the U.S. They were offered in the early 90s and overlapped with the normal EJ22 for a couple of years. The EJ20t is an OBDII motor I believe which as Warren mentioned, is a lot more work to make California Legal. If you're not in California, ANY option is a viable option. If you're in those areas of the state that are exempt from smog checks then it's still an option. Nothing is easy in California.

Sigh,

Chester

Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:47 pm

warren C wrote:
Maybe I'm overly paranoid, but I subscribe to the "let sleeping dogs lie" ...or "less said the better" attitude.

Even paranoids have enemies. I tend to agree with your philosophy.

Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:14 pm

ChesterKV wrote: Essentially, they are HARD to find because not very many were ever sold in the U.S. They were offered in the early 90s and overlapped with the normal EJ22 for a couple of years. The EJ20t is an OBDII motor I believe which as Warren mentioned, is a lot more work to make California Legal. If you're not in California, ANY option is a viable option.
Ah, I guess I was referring to the EJ20T (standard wrx motor).

Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:36 pm

8419p27 wrote:
Ah, I guess I was referring to the EJ20T (standard wrx motor).

Here's a great thread on VW Vortex on installation of an EJ20T in a Wolfsburg.....Eric Didier's first turbo conversion... he's done several since, including a 300+HP STI motor into a Tristar

Portland Oregon

Part I

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1156979

Part II

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1252551&page=1

I drove it and just laughed the whole drive....it was so much fun...and said "Gotta have one of these"...and went out and bought a fire engine red Carat w/blown engine......it's still sitting in my shop.

Drove the Tristar too....it's insane!

Enjoy

Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:37 pm

Quick question to aid my early bay project:

Do Vanagons use a center transmission mount like the late bays? If so, how much weight does it actually carry?

The reason I ask is that I'd like to use a Small Car mount with a vanagon moustache bar modified to match my early bay chassis attach points. I'm concerned, though, that the lack of the center transmission mount might overstress the Small Car mount or the adapter plate between the engine and transmission.

Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:20 pm

GeorgeL wrote:

I'm concerned, though, that the lack of the center transmission mount might overstress the Small Car mount or the adapter plate between the engine and transmission.

No bar on Vanagons....under the engine/bell housing.

There were some problems with broken studs using the small car mount. Most of the problems were with the higher stress of 3.3L engines (200+ ft.lbs of torque) or Syncros ...( extra stress from higher torque from Subie engines applied through the granny gear ??). There were not a lot of cases...and over half the reported cases came from one "extreme" driver who regularly traveled to Baja...."the destroyer of all things mechanical".

I have not heard of any new cases in quite a while on the SV Yahoo Group since the general practice has been to use 10.9 grade bolts and drilling out the bottom holes of the adpater plate and and using "thru" bolts instead of studs.

Warren C>

Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:52 pm

warren C wrote: GeorgeL wrote:

I'm concerned, though, that the lack of the center transmission mount might overstress the Small Car mount or the adapter plate between the engine and transmission.

No bar on Vanagons....under the engine/bell housing.

OK, just so I am clear, the engine/transmissions package on a vanagon is mounted at two places, the front of the transmission and the ends of the moustache bar at the rear, right? Just like the early Bays.

warren C wrote: There were some problems with broken studs using the small car mount. Most of the problems were with the higher stress of 3.3L engines (200+ ft.lbs of torque) or Syncros ...( extra stress from higher torque from Subie engines applied through the granny gear ??). There were not a lot of cases...and over half the reported cases came from one "extreme" driver who regularly traveled to Baja...."the destroyer of all things mechanical".

OK, I'm thinking of a 2.5 SOHC, so I won't be stressing things as much.

warren C wrote: I have not heard of any new cases in quite a while on the SV Yahoo Group since the general practice has been to use 10.9 grade bolts and drilling out the bottom holes of the adpater plate and and using "thru" bolts instead of studs.

Sounds good. Do you have a pointer to this info? It sounds like something I would want to have in the file.

Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:02 am

WonkoTheSane wrote: ChesterKV wrote:

I'm actually toying with the idea of an EJ22T but that would require a whole new (used) engine and wiring harness; so, not cheap.

- Chester

I've been looking for a donor vehicle online (but due to lack of funding haven't acted on anything yet), but have not seen any EJ22T engines out there... How common are these engines? I have seen what some people have called an EJ20T, is that a viable option? If I had my way, I'd opt for the turbo myself if I can find one. I live at 8000 feet in the Eastern Sierra, and will be driving on some pretty steep grades.

Any advice on where one should look to find the EJ22T, and what models they were installed in?

-ken

EJ22T is a North America-only motor that came in 1991-94 Legacy Sport Sedan, Legacy Touring Wagon, and a few other niche wagons. It's a closed-deck, low-compression turbocharged SOHC motor producing 186 hp in stock form, but easily boosted to 250+ with minimal bolt-on modification, and internally capable of 300hp with no mods. Great shortblock, but the heads sorta suck as far as flow is concerned. The EJ20G is similar, DOHC 2.0L (as indicated) but higher compression, Euro or Japan market. EJ20T is, I *think*, the US WRX engine...much newer.
The wiring harness is essentially identical to the NA car, except that the cam and crankshaft sensor wires are swapped positions. You must use the Turbo ECU.
Look for ads for Legacy Turbos. Visually, a 1st gen Legacy sedan or wagon, look for a subtle hood scoop, 15" alloy wheels (the ones used on subsequent Outbacks) and rear badging. The sedan also has a low-profile spoiler on the trunk.
Look here in the Parts Bin for cars & engines for sale:
www.bbs.legacycentral.org

Jerry McCavitt
'86 Syncro GL
'91 Legacy Turbo Sedan

Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:57 am

mccavittj wrote:
EJ22T is a North America-only motor that came in 1991-94 Legacy Sport Sedan, Legacy Touring Wagon, and a few other niche wagons. It's a closed-deck, low-compression turbocharged SOHC motor producing 186 hp in stock form, but easily boosted to 250+ with minimal bolt-on modification, and internally capable of 300hp with no mods. Great shortblock, but the heads sorta suck as far as flow is concerned. The EJ20T/G is similar, DOHC 2.0L (as indicated) but higher compression, Euro or Japan market.
The wiring harness is essentially identical to the NA car, except that the cam and crankshaft sensor wires are swapped positions. You must use the Turbo ECU.
Look for ads for Legacy Turbos. Visually, a 1st gen Legacy sedan or wagon, look for a subtle hood scoop, 15" alloy wheels (the ones used on subsequent Outbacks) and rear badging.
www.bbs.legacycentral.org

Jerry McCavitt
'86 Syncro GL
'91 Legacy Turbo Sedan

Wow Jerry! Thanks for the detailed info! That sounds like one heckuva motor... Now I just need to keep my eyes peeled and my wallet fat!

-ken

Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:30 am

Yeah, no problem, hopefully it's accurate! (See edits)

Just want to add my thanks to Chester for the detailed photos and write-ups...this thread should be printed on glossy paper and sold as a how-to guide. We all appreciate the time it takes to write up these entries, as well as the effort simply to halt the process, and take photos in the middle of the work.
Well done, brother.

Jerry
'86 Syncro (swap in cryogenic stasis for winter)
'91 Legacy Turbo (getting it's own swap done: 2.5L RS-RA Hybrid)

Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:53 am

mccavittj wrote: WonkoTheSane wrote: ChesterKV wrote:

I'm actually toying with the idea of an EJ22T but that would require a whole new (used) engine and wiring harness; so, not cheap.

- Chester

I've been looking for a donor vehicle online (but due to lack of funding haven't acted on anything yet), but have not seen any EJ22T engines out there... How common are these engines? I have seen what some people have called an EJ20T, is that a viable option? If I had my way, I'd opt for the turbo myself if I can find one. I live at 8000 feet in the Eastern Sierra, and will be driving on some pretty steep grades.

Any advice on where one should look to find the EJ22T, and what models they were installed in?

-ken

EJ22T is a North America-only motor that came in 1991-94 Legacy Sport Sedan, Legacy Touring Wagon, and a few other niche wagons. It's a closed-deck, low-compression turbocharged SOHC motor producing 186 hp in stock form, but easily boosted to 250+ with minimal bolt-on modification, and internally capable of 300hp with no mods. Great shortblock, but the heads sorta suck as far as flow is concerned. The EJ20G is similar, DOHC 2.0L (as indicated) but higher compression, Euro or Japan market. EJ20T is, I *think*, the US WRX engine...much newer.
The wiring harness is essentially identical to the NA car, except that the cam and crankshaft sensor wires are swapped positions. You must use the Turbo ECU.
Look for ads for Legacy Turbos. Visually, a 1st gen Legacy sedan or wagon, look for a subtle hood scoop, 15" alloy wheels (the ones used on subsequent Outbacks) and rear badging. The sedan also has a low-profile spoiler on the trunk.
Look here in the Parts Bin for cars & engines for sale:
www.bbs.legacycentral.org

Jerry McCavitt
'86 Syncro GL
'91 Legacy Turbo Sedan

Thanks for the info and a quick question; Is the EJ22T non-interference like it's normally aspirated (n.a.) brother ?

Thanks,

Chester

Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:27 pm

Chester, Nice job on the documentation. I had a mechanic do my conversion but have learned a lot from your chronicles here over the past couple days about all that needs to happen.

I'd be happy to send you this or a version of this dash indicator panel for your check engine light at no charge. You have given us all a lot of your heart and soul on this conversion to reference and learn from. Thank you. Just get me you mailing address and I'll get it in the mail.

It is a high quality backlit plastic film and vinyl so the light illuminates the display properly. It looks stock but can be in a white version as well. Other Samba members can contact me for purchase of this insert.

Thanks again - Nice work!

Oops - I don't see how to attach a pic! HELP
[/img]

Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:56 pm

Here's the picture:
pmail me Chester if you want me to mail one to you - like I said, I have the check engine indicator in other positions like the unused OXS location or the oil pressure location if you've gone with an additional gauge.

Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:09 pm

WestyKlaus wrote: Chester, Nice job on the documentation. I had a mechanic do my conversion but have learned a lot from your chronicles here over the past couple days about all that needs to happen.

I'd be happy to send you this or a version of this dash indicator panel for your check engine light at no charge. You have given us all a lot of your heart and soul on this conversion to reference and learn from. Thank you. Just get me you mailing address and I'll get it in the mail.

It is a high quality backlit plastic film and vinyl so the light illuminates the display properly. It looks stock but can be in a white version as well. Other Samba members can contact me for purchase of this insert.

Thanks again - Nice work!

Oops - I don't see how to attach a pic! HELP
[/img]

Wow, that's cool. Thanks. I've put a temporary amber l.e.d. on an old VW Golf/Rabbit dashboard piece of plastic and put it over the blank spot at the lower right corner of the dashboard. That's just to get through the upcoming California CARB inspection and then I want to go with a more stock look. With an '84 I have the OXY marking at the lower left of the VW l.e.d. cluster. I'd love to have it read CHK ENG to the right of it in the last remaining l.e.d. location. Perhaps an engine outline with the lightening bolt running through the middle of it. I'd like to take you up on your offer but let me first ask the CARB referee what they will allow and that will give me a set of choices.

Very cool and thanks again,

Temporary CHECK ENGINE l.e.d.

I'm going to ask the CARB official what is allowed for this spot

The CARB inspection is scheduled for Friday, January 24, 2008. We shall see.

Very cool and thanks again,

Chester

.

.

Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:25 pm

ChesterKV wrote:

Thanks for the info and a quick question; Is the EJ22T non-interference like it's normally aspirated (n.a.) brother ?

Thanks,

Chester

Yes, the EJ22T is a non-interference engine. Other interesting items about it are; dished, forged pistons that help lower compression, oil squirters that cool the uderside of the pistons, sand-cast, closed-deck block, water/oil heat exchanger (between block and oil filter, like the WBX), H.D. hi-press. oil pump, different water pump w/ 2 returns (for turbocharger cooling).
Subaru designed this motor in conjunction with the EJ20G, with similar specs, but low compression to utilize the generally crap gasoline in N. America. It's a very different motor then it's NA cousin, capable of sustained boost, and shrugs off a lot of abuse, as I can personally attest.

Jerry

Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:09 pm

mccavittj wrote: ChesterKV wrote:

Thanks for the info and a quick question; Is the EJ22T non-interference like it's normally aspirated (n.a.) brother ?

Thanks,

Chester

Yes, the EJ22T is a non-interference engine. Other interesting items about it are; dished, forged pistons that help lower compression, oil squirters that cool the uderside of the pistons, sand-cast, closed-deck block, water/oil heat exchanger (between block and oil filter, like the WBX), H.D. hi-press. oil pump, different water pump w/ 2 returns (for turbocharger cooling).
Subaru designed this motor in conjunction with the EJ20G, with similar specs, but low compression to utilize the generally crap gasoline in N. America. It's a very different motor then it's NA cousin, capable of sustained boost, and shrugs off a lot of abuse, as I can personally attest.

Jerry

Good God....it's decided then; my next project will be an EJ22T.

:shock:

Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:10 pm

You guys may already know about this, but it's pretty amazing;

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/subaru_manual_scans/FSM_Scans/

Whole bunch of .pdf scans of Subaru factory service manuals, including wiring diagrams.

Jerry

Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:06 pm

Very good job Chester, i'm impress by all the work you did... i hope it was worthed :D I read it all today

I have been there a few time last summer in my shop, updating older Subi conversion with Hans from Vanaru to the Vanaru spec.

For those that were asking questions about EJ22 generation i open i few one up (mostly for fun) lately and found out a very big difference in between the late and earlier version. The main one being the piston design, the later are way lighter and have way shorter skirt, the earlier one look a lot like the original Wasser engine.

On that page:
http://www.benplace.com/subaru_ej22.htm
You can see on the left the late piston design.

Anyway, i know you live in CA but if you have any question on the 2.5L i will be more than happy to answer it. I can tell you one thing, in town there is not much difference! We did a race me and Hans with a 2.2L, but on highway and on the hills..... ouffffffff, now you know! I also have the taller fourth gear on my van so i can cruise easily at 75 and i'm well bellow 4000 (Around 3700 - OBD checked and GPS speed)

I'm in Mexico right now with my van / 2.5L, it's nice to have that power here. Hans from Vanaru was also here with an SVX.

Here my trip page:
http://www.benplace.com/mexico2008.htm

Here my VW tec section page:
http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm

Here is my van/engine page:
http://www.benplace.com/85westy2.htm

Cheers, Ben
http://www.benplace.com/