TheSamba.com :: View topic - can you use a torch to loosen ball joints?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:28 pm

Trying to get mine loose, thought of using a torch?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:37 pm

Never use heat on steering or suspension components.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:06 pm

Have you tried a ball joint separator? Also known as a "pickle fork".

Check at Sears.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:47 pm

Sure. I used a torch to pop my ball joints out after much wrestling, cussing, praying, etc. didn't loosen my 69's original ball joints with a ball joint remover tool. Just heated around the perimeter evenly to a dull red glow, placed the swing arm over an anvil and after a couple of swift taps with a ball peen hammer those ball joints were rolling on the floor. Just make sure to allow the swing arms to cool slowly so as to not affect the material properties too much. Hot rodders have been heating and bending forged (not cast!) suspension parts for ages for whatever it's worth. Fire up the torch I say.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:59 pm

Heneroid wrote: Sure. I used a torch to pop my ball joints out after much wrestling, cussing, praying, etc. didn't loosen my 69's original ball joints with a ball joint remover tool. Just heated around the perimeter evenly to a dull red glow, placed the swing arm over an anvil and after a couple of swift taps with a ball peen hammer those ball joints were rolling on the floor. Just make sure to allow the swing arms to cool slowly so as to not affect the material properties too much. Hot rodders have been heating and bending forged (not cast!) suspension parts for ages for whatever it's worth. Fire up the torch I say.

Actually, quenching it would make it stronger than a slow cool.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:25 pm

Glenn and Keifernet have the right tool for the job. The easiest way though is to buy the torsion arms with the ball joints already pressed in there. The "correct" tool is no longer made and the rent-a-tool from Auto Zone just won't work. The "sleeves" are the wrong diameter. There are many threads and pictures about ball joint woes.

Good Luck whatever you do.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:28 pm

Heneroid wrote: Sure. I used a torch to pop my ball joints out after much wrestling, cussing, praying, etc. didn't loosen my 69's original ball joints with a ball joint remover tool. Just heated around the perimeter evenly to a dull red glow, placed the swing arm over an anvil and after a couple of swift taps with a ball peen hammer those ball joints were rolling on the floor. Just make sure to allow the swing arms to cool slowly so as to not affect the material properties too much. Hot rodders have been heating and bending forged (not cast!) suspension parts for ages for whatever it's worth. Fire up the torch I say.

What method did you use to press them back in????

Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:10 am

keifernet wrote: What method did you use to press them back in????

Probalby the same method: head up the 'ring' and cool the balljoint (stick in freezer), insert small cold part in large hot part, then cool.

Hot rodders have been doing that to the 1930's front ends for decades, that is how they assemble the front spindle assemblies.

Just dont heat the assembly so hot that is glows red-orange....only need to heat it up so that it expands.

In another thread someone talked about welding a washer to the top of the ball joint to cause it to contract. I have never done that before, but sounds plausible....

What ever happend to using an arbor press? Nobody has them anymore? Last time I had a Ball joint (not to be confused witha tierod end which everybody else in the world besides VW guys call a ball joint) replaced, the guy used an arbor press in combination with some heat.

Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:21 am

I'll stick with the OTC tool... no heat for me! :lol: :wink:

Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:07 am

be careful when using high heat around that grease . . . if the grease gets really heated and you give the joint a smack, and it makes contact with your skin . . . its not gonna cool down very quickly

Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:23 pm

Icy wrote: Never use heat on steering or suspension components.

X2 I do, however, place the new ones in the freezer overnight to aid in reassembly.
Marvin

Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:08 pm

Wow. I'd better read up on this. I'm looking to do a disc brake upgrade that will involve a ball joint replacement.

Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:26 pm

dnbuggy wrote: Trying to get mine loose, thought of using a torch?

When taking my front end apart I used this trick I read about in a book: You use two two hammers on each end of the steering arm, one as a hammer, one as a dolly.
The thought is that the hole distorts slightly, allowing it to loosen. It worked quite well for me.

Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:55 pm

Mark33563 wrote:
Actually, quenching it would make it stronger than a slow cool.

I'm no metallurgical engineer but I do know that too quick of a cool-down such as quenching in water will cause the metal to become brittle--not good. If you are talking about an oil quench then please enlighten us with some more info. because that would seem to be a more reasonable type of quenching.

Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:03 pm

Quite true. Oh it'll get harder all right but very brittle and prone to breakage.

Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:19 pm

keifernet wrote:

What method did you use to press them back in????

A cheapo Harbor Freight 12 ton arbor press. I picked up the press for about $100 on sale and plan to replace ball joints in 3 other front ends using this same method since it worked out very well for me. For either the upper or lower ball joints, can't recall which, I used a piece of round tubing to go over the threaded end of the ball joint to be able to press down on the ball joint's flange (obviously can't press down on the threaded shank of the ball joint so need to press down on the piece of tubing which only makes contact with the flange of the ball joint). The necessity for this piece of round tubing will become very obvious once the time comes to use the arbor press. Oh, and no heat necessary to press them back in--only needed heat to let them 38 year old electron bonds know who the boss is when the old ball joints have to come out.

For some it's not a bad option to have a shop replace the ball joints for you for whatever reason but doing it yourself is very possible if you have the tools and want to do it yourself. As always, work safely and protect them eyeballs.

Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:20 pm

You don't weld a washer to the ball joint, you weld a ring of weld on it, when the weld cools it shrinks. I believe it was for the lower ball joint as the upper one can be removed with a ball joint press. You will get some smoke as you start burning up the grease and nylon part inside. I may have also popped out the cap on it as well. Even after welding the ring, I still had to use a hammer to pound them out, however I didn't have to hit too hard.

Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:48 am

The beautiful thing about the proper tool is they can be done on the car and in a short time with less hassle taking the front end further apart/torsion arms off etc etc.

Now for some who are changing beams or something and the arms are already off then find someone who will do them with a big press. Make sure they are aware of the way the notches line up when pressing them back in.

Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:52 am

Heneroid wrote: Mark33563 wrote:
Actually, quenching it would make it stronger than a slow cool.

I'm no metallurgical engineer but I do know that too quick of a cool-down such as quenching in water will cause the metal to become brittle--not good. If you are talking about an oil quench then please enlighten us with some more info. because that would seem to be a more reasonable type of quenching.

Not really. Quenching alone locks the metal into its current state of interstitial bond (you can do this by anealing the metal as well and more efficiently: sword manufacturing). As you heat metel (specifically steel) it changes properties as it approaches its melting point. Likewise, as you cool to freeze steel and continue to cool it, you make it brittle (Siberian railroad comes to mind, you can shatter it with a hammer blow).

It should be noted that as you make metal stronger it becomes more brittle. But you are not going to make it so brittle that it smashed apart at the next pothole by quenching in this case. When you cold form (bend) metal you make it stronger and more brittle (take a metal coat hander and keep bendingt it back and forth, it breaks because it gets brittle at the bend point. it gets brittle at the bend point because you are continually packing the particles closer and closer together).

Another way you make steel brittle is when you induce more carbon to the mix. In order to get more carbon in the mix you would have to melt it down (or come pretty close to it) which is not what we are talking about doing here. In any case, if you are heating your steering knuckle to the point carbon is introduced, the part is going to fail once you get it off the jack or be a puddle under the car.

This is all crap from memory, I can dig up the old engineering text and send you some metallurgic graphs showing the different properties, if you want. I think I know which work bench the book is holding up....

Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:10 am

I've used a torch, bottle jack, a socket, and a length of chain. On trucks that is. Results on VWs may vary.