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Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:51 pm

allsierra123 wrote: The initial cost is the same as a 2.4 yes. But in the long run less money would be spent on another engine if needed.
Isn't that kind of a hopeful "guess" at this point?

Bostig says a grand total of 48(?) engines have been installed.

How many miles on them?

Sure there are gobs of these engines out there in other vehicles.. but how many of them are 3500lbs with the wind resistance of a Mack truck?

I'm not even so sure about the parts "availability" issue. Most every part you need for a 40 yr old bus can be had today.. Why is that gonna change with a 20+ yr old Vanagon?

Either way, its an interesting option.. and I'm sure the debate will not end soon. I listen to the discussion and to the rationalizations. Lots of "points" well made for the conventional conversions, no doubt.

I'm at 158k on my 2.1.. some say "borrowed time". I'm giving thought to which enigne next and I cross my fingers I can be that lucky one who gets 250k.
But if it were to crap out tomorrow, I'm not ready to "convert".. I'd likely call my order in for a 2.2 at GW or maybe check out 10cent.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:07 pm

The Bostig conversion is not a smog legal option for California. Just a little bit of information needed for those in CA. considering a Bostig kit.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:20 am

allsierra123 wrote:

I'm not even so sure about the parts "availability" issue. Most every part you need for a 40 yr old bus can be had today.. Why is that gonna change with a 20+ yr old Vanagon?

When I think of "available" in regards to parts, it's this:

I've got a part failure that leaves my van sitting on the roadside. Is it going to be sitting there for the 6 hours it takes me to find a local FLAPS or dealer, or is it going to be sitting there until a part arrives from Van-Cafe, GoWesty (both in California), Bus Depot (Pennsylvania)??

Lets say that some sensor goes bad, coolant temp for example. Original vw waterboxer, can I walk into a local FLAPS and get this same or next day?? I would bet not. Bet I could with a Subie or Zetec.

I'm not knocking the wasserboxer. I love my 1.9, and hope it keeps chugging along for a long time. But when the time comes, I'll be looking for a more powerful, more efficient, cleaner burning option.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:47 am

exactly. Just read through the website. I called around to the local FLAPS and high maintenance parts common stuff, alternator, water pump Timing belt they had this stuff in stock for the Zetec engine. You ask about anything for a vanagon even a generic T stat. They have to order it. So if I break down with the stock WBX. Im at least looking like at an overnight stay. And hopefully its not in the winter time.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:42 pm

syncrodoka wrote: The Bostig conversion is not a smog legal option for California. Just a little bit of information needed for those in CA. considering a Bostig kit.
I thought I saw (on thier website) that a Bositg had been installed on a Cali van.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:43 pm

I dont see why you couldnt get it smogged it comes under all of the laws in cali. You just have to take it to a ref station and get it inspected.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:50 pm

allsierra123 wrote: I dont see why you couldnt get it smogged it comes under all of the laws in cali. You just have to take it to a ref station and get it inspected.

bostig has said CA denied them b/c CA believes the trans is part of the emissions systems, but that only applies to autos, but they are dumb.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:51 pm

[quote="hiram6"] allsierra123 wrote:
When I think of "available" in regards to parts, it's this:

I've got a part failure that leaves my van sitting on the roadside. Is it going to be sitting there for the 6 hours it takes me to find a local FLAPS or dealer, or is it going to be sitting there until a part arrives from Van-Cafe, GoWesty (both in California), Bus Depot (Pennsylvania)??

Lets say that some sensor goes bad, coolant temp for example. Original vw waterboxer, can I walk into a local FLAPS and get this same or next day?? I would bet not. Bet I could with a Subie or Zetec.

I 've done a couple trips down thru Baja.. where parts are not available expect for the older Bus types still built (at the time) in Mexico.

I carried spares of everything I might need.
Of course you can't carry a spare of "everything".. but ever since, I've left a healthy backup of this and that under the bed seat. When I replace an old but working part.. the old one gets added to the pile.

Sure its nice to get parts at 7-11.. I'm just thinking back over 20 yrs of owning various VWs and not remembering ever being stranded overnight waiting for a part.

Same goes for the non-VWs I've owned.

Nothing beats keeping an engine well maintained to prevent most all failures.

Cheers to your luck with the 1.9. Keep on rolling!

As far as a better perfoming engine?.. I don't see an additional 20 horse or so, that much of an improvement. But then again I have the 2.1 and I live at sea level.
Geez.. I'd stuff a Buick V-6 in there if I wanted an engine that could push a Vanagon to the expectations of most Americans.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:17 pm

Well I have never been stranded over night in a vw either. But it happened to me in my mercedes. And it was in the summer time and I had to have it towed to a garage about 100 miles away the next day. ended up being a bad coil. $185 for a used one and I was on my way. I am not to worried about breaking down over night. It runs good.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:10 pm

j_dirge wrote:

I'm at 158k on my 2.1.. some say "borrowed time". I'm giving thought to which enigne next and I cross my fingers I can be that lucky one who gets 250k.

If you were at 158k on a 1.9 I'd say you have a real good shot at hitting 250k.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:35 pm

2.1 specs from vanagon.com:

90HP @ 4800RPM, 117FtLbs @ 3200RPM

Zetec specs from bostig.com:

130hp@5300rpm
130ft-lb@4000rpm

At least 40 hp difference in stock form, can add 15hp and 25 lb/ft with optional cams.

To me that is a substantial increase, a 41% increase. For my 1.9, it's an even bigger jump.

And, while I understand the advantage/desireability of carrying extra parts, maybe we need to "deduct" horsepower points by the weight of spare parts and tools we need to carry "just in case".

That's somewhat tongue in cheek, so don't flame me, but the point is valid. I carry a toolbox that weighs 30+ pounds, and numerous spares myself. That is weight, and storage space that I would rather use for other camping supplies. If I had a zetec that I had a comfort level with, I may narrow down my toolbox/parts that I carry.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:40 pm

hiram6 wrote: 2.1 specs from vanagon.com:

90HP @ 4800RPM, 117FtLbs @ 3200RPM

Zetec specs from bostig.com:

130hp@5300rpm
130ft-lb@4000rpm

At least 40 hp difference in stock form, can add 15hp and 25 lb/ft with optional cams.

I was thinking more the comparison of the GW 2.2 to Bostig. And a $4000 +/- price difference.

But the GW 2.4, price-wise is more in line, the "performance" is similar.

Bostig lives longer? May be..
We'll see as they get to 120k after pushing 3800lbs and a big 50 sq ft of flat front end thru the air.

Are these engines used in anything else comparable to the vanagon?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:12 pm

Hey guys,

Got a heads up on the thread.. cool... let's get the questions coming.

Don't get hung up on the weight of the vehicle thing, it's only the outward top of the head, yet incomplete metric. You need to be asking what kind of LOAD the engine can handle over time.

Higher weight does usually translate to higher load, but it isn't a one to one, your grandmother doesn't push anything like you would(typically). As to how well they handle load and how durable they are, just use google, or just sit it out and watch our customer base like you said.

Yeah the turbo is the sh*t, it's so impressive to drive it, I can start driving in 4th gear at 25mph and put my foot down and savagely get beyond 100 where my van is a deathtrap... of course I'm running 12psi at the moment.. I think we'll end up shipping with around 9-10. It's a torque monster. Some might like pushrod 6's and 8's, and cling to misunderstandings like "there's no replacement for displacement" but that's fine too.. most of america likes nascar. Different strokes different folks. I'll take my strokes with sturdy, small, lightweight, forced induction please.

If you want the best argument yet for getting a zetec into a van, the turbo kit is it. We're going down tuesday to pull some numbers(which BTW we're still the only ones that publish chassis dyno numbers for wheel output, which is insane since people are laying out thousands and don't even know what they're getting, or where they actually stack up)

The next phase in development along with the revision 2.0 which is due out next year, is the JB Core, (Jim Brady Core) which is the DIY "Core" version that we would have been able to afford back in 04 when brady popped his last wbx. The kit should be at or under the $3500 price range, have reduced features(which honestly most guys seem to underutilize/not need anyhow) but you have to pass a technical screen with me on the phone in order to buy one of the early kits. BUT it'll allow you to get a turbo zetec into your van for under $7k. NOTHING else even comes remotely close for the money, we're talking light years away. This is for guys that know what they are doing, know what they want, but don't have lot's of money to spend.

We're also working on an introductory DVD that should be available by spring. It'll go a long way in educating folks about what they should expect when they lay out huge sums of money for a conversion. It's been an uphill battle, but we persevere. Everything is going the right direction, everything is getting better and our development is always accelerating. All good good things. I was surprised in 04 when I saw how stagnant the conversion landscape was, and even now we still have competitors getting away with just laughingly untrue statements that vanagon guys accept, that would never fly in any other aftermarket segment... simply because they don't know(either the customers or the competitors ha). The scare tactic is a powerful way to win votes/hearts. Hearts are the reason, but winning minds should be the goal. The explanations as to how all these systems work and how we affect them are simple, they just need to be broken down so they aren't overwhelming.. and that's what we intend to do. Sell them a turnkey they drive for 100k, teach them how to build their own out of a foundation of true understanding, and that van is golden until the day you die. Oh and if you're wondering(customers have been telling me this is important info to share), we still haven't made a dime in 3 years, it all goes back into development.

Flame suit on,

Jim Akiba

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:46 pm

:D if we had an applause emoticon I would be using it. These guys are doing some great work at keeping what is becoming a very rare vehicle on the road with better driveability and cheaper maintenance. I used to be pretty involved in the Mitsubishi community Had a nicely set up montero. But the parts were getting hard if not near impossible to find. We had a few guys like them making some custom stuff for us but it was getting very spendy.We need more people willing to give us options like this to keep our vans on the road as long as possible. I dont know about the rest of you but I want to keep mine for a long time

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:37 pm

We do not flame here.

:shock:

We read. We learn.

:shock:

At times we disagree.

:evil:

Water balloons are occasionally exchanged.

:shock:

But we do not flame. Incidentally...

=D>

Good luck in your endeavors.

Best!

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:54 pm

Allrighty jim, what's up with getting the system smog legal in CA? Has there been any progress or is everything still on hold? I wouldn't mind your kit being a legal option in my state for a future syncro van I will buy.

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:28 pm

syncrodoka wrote: Allrighty jim, what's up with getting the system smog legal in CA? Has there been any progress or is everything still on hold? I wouldn't mind your kit being a legal option in my state for a future syncro van I will buy.

EXCELLENT question.

Other than the whole drivetrain into the van(with tranny, which is actually an option believe it or not... and it gives you a trunk as well) it isn't likely to happen on a prefectly legal scale.

We have to pray to the BAR guys and get someone that knows what they are doing (shout out to stephan and the boys at his autohouse with their 1.8T conversion!) in order to make it legal on a case by case in CA. The real scoop is this. The state is trying to force fleet overturn(displace every old vehicle on the road), and is going to try to make it impossible to keep your old one legal. Japan does this, so does germany(although not to the same scale). It works like this, CA mandates incredibly tough emissions laws, the OEMS bitch and moan, but comply as long as the state forces new sales to support development to comply with the tough emissions laws.... honestly, not a bad way to make it happen... but we'll all have an issue with it.

They do not care what the emissions actually are from single vehicles, and in a way they are right to.. what they are trying to do is very difficult, but we all get screwed in the small scale as a result. It doesn't matter that our conversion is demonstrably cleaner than the engine it replaces, they don't want the van on the road at all.. they want you to want a ZEV, or electric... not keep your old car.

The only sure way to have one in CA right now is to register in a zone 3 emissions area, and have it inspected once and not have to worry about it. Loophole at best, but honestly since it's so much cleaner anyhow, my conscience is clear.

We have 3 customers doing this now. 90% of our customers do not have emissions testing of any kind whatsoever BTW which is also interesting. We've also definitely lost more than 12 sales as a result of CA policy.

For 2wd drive guys though, if we can get the whole driveline conversion thing going, it'll likely be cheaper than converting(since only a few shifting/mounting parts would be needed) and can you imagine having a modern electronic 4 speed auto, or 6 speed manual in a van... plus use the under deck lid area for trunk space.. would be sweet. We're looking to do it for the older buses first, like our landlord's 72 then go ahead in vanagons. We'd need to add an access hatch under the rear bench, but it'd be worth it for most CA 2wd guys I'd bet.

Jim Akiba

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:39 pm

Jim,

The last time I checked, engine conversions in CA could be approved by a bar referee if all of conversion engine's emission equipment is swapped over and everything is hooked up just so. Therefore, I'm guessing that a California owner could take a Bostig conversion to a BAR referee and possibly get a BAR approval sticker, if all of the original zetec emissions equipment is in place. Right? Or is the zetec transmission somehow considered part of the emissions system?

I suppose that, even if an individual can get a pass from a BAR ref, that's not a good business plan for Bostig to sell to CA consumers, eh? I'm glad you're still trying to crack the "Golden State." There's a lot of Vanagons in them thar hills!

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:06 am

I think it is kickass when vendors post in here.

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:21 am

[quote="bostig"] syncrodoka wrote:
We have 3 customers doing this now. 90% of our customers do not have emissions testing of any kind whatsoever BTW which is also interesting. We've also definitely lost more than 12 sales as a result of CA policy.

For 2wd drive guys though, if we can get the whole driveline conversion thing going, it'll likely be cheaper than converting(since only a few shifting/mounting parts would be needed) and can you imagine having a modern electronic 4 speed auto, or 6 speed manual in a van... plus use the under deck lid area for trunk space.. would be sweet. We're looking to do it for the older buses first, like our landlord's 72 then go ahead in vanagons. We'd need to add an access hatch under the rear bench, but it'd be worth it for most CA 2wd guys I'd bet.

Jim Akiba
If you can make that happen, I'm signing up.
A turbo zetec kit, 6 spd.

The 4 spd is the vanagon's worst feature, IMHO.

I'll usher it through Cali smog referees. Keep us posted.