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Perales Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:26 pm

msinabottle wrote: which is $3 a bottle and you use the whole thing.
That would make it idiot proof, except that I am not just any idiot!
Need to keep doing math.
Option 1:
1) Take four empty bottles the same size.
2) Visually divide a bottle of ZDDPlus equally between the four bottles.
3) Top up the bottles with 20W50
4) Seal up bottles
5) Use a whole bottle with each oil change

Option 2:
1) Take four bottles 20W50
2) Add 1 fl.oz ZDDPlus (1/4 bottle) to each bottle of oil
3) Seal up bottles
4) Mark oil bottles as "SPECIAL"
5) Use one of the "SPECIAL" bottles of oil in each of your next four oil changes

Result: $2.50 per oil change (plus you get to feel like a mad scientist)


Perales Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:22 am

Just as a follow up for those following this thread:

I found STP red bottle and BG MOA technical data, really hard to find.
Here is what I found so far:

ZDDPlus 4 fl.oz: Zn 6.8, P 4.8 (weight%)
GM EOS 16 fl.oz: Zn 0.629, P 0.614 (weight%)
BG MOA 11 fl.oz: Zn 0.17, P 0.15 (weight%)
STP 4 cyl (red) 15 fl.oz: Zn 0.1959, P 0.1814 (weight%)

With a full oil change of Castrol GTX 20w50, you would need over two bottles of red STP to bring the ZDDP levels up to 0.13%
You would need 3 1/4 cans of BG MOA to do the same
GM EOS 6/10 of a bottle
ZDDPlus 1/4 bottle.

BG MOA does interst me though, it seems to supplement the oil in other ways. I wonder about using BG MOA and then topping up with ZDDPlus....I think I am starting to lose it.........?????????????':?'

tencentlife Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:04 am

Too late. You've lost it. Time to talk you down off the ledge.

How about some units notation for your figures above? What numbers are you expressing? Ppm? Percent? Grams? Huh?

Also, and this is what I've been harping on (otherwise this is of no immediate interest to me, but may be of use in future when my vast supply of Rotella runs out!): what are the calcium, sodium, etc. numbers for these products? If you don't know them, how can you know that these additives aren't creating the need to replace the oil at a more frequent interval?

I suppose you could do UOA's to know. But lab tests aren't very economical do do frequently on engines that only carry 5 qts.

Perales Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:31 am

I updated the previous post with units. (I was referring to weight%)
I got the data from the following documents. The levels for calcium, sodium etc are listed for all but ZDDPlus. The lab results for that one just talk about Zn and P levels. Oh well, more research,... or where is that ledge???

http://sterkel.org/systems%2Dengineering%2Dassocia...To_Use.pdf
http://www.westfalia.gomez-perales.com/Images/ZddPlusTestResults1.jpg

tencentlife Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:28 am

By now it should be just under your toes.

I don't mean to nag. I'm with the silent others who greatly appreciate the legwork you're doing. It will benefit many, even me someday, I suppose. This kind of stuff takes a lot of time. Keep up the good work.

Most of these oil discussions online (and in the world of meat) hinge on a bunch of perfectly worthless anecdotal observations like "I always change my oil at 3000 miles and my engine hasn't blown up yet," as if engines blowing up is the first indication of wear, or things equally numbskulled. "My dad always did it that way" is a constant favorite. Consequently, I rarely comment on any oil thread, because, firstly, I'm no expert, but secondly and more important, most of the commenters seem perfectly unamenable to reasoned deduction or examination of facts. The discussions' greatest value for an intelligent reader are as places where one can observe classical logical fallacies in action. So good on ya' for hunting down the facts and trying to fit them together.

Perales Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:42 am

It looks so beautiful from up here.........

According to the MSDS, ZDDPlus is pretty straight up.

Complex Substance(s):
Distillates (petroleum), solvent-dewaxed heavy paraffinic
ZINC DIALKYL DITHIOPHOSPHATE (CAS 84605-29-8)

and that's it.
(Why don't I believe it is that simple)

msinabottle Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:28 pm

Just to take us all 'round the bend, here's what a fellow on another forum got back from STP, releatively recently (Posted 2/3/2008):

Quote: I called STP/ Clorox customer service and they would not tell me anything other than red and blue stp has 4-4.5 times more zinc than regular oil and the white has 6 times more zinc. A few days later I got this email. I am not selling it according to his email. Ken

Hi Ken,

We no longer sell our Oil Stabilizer. But since you're selling it, here is the info you requested.

STP Oil Stabilizer, STP Oil Treatment and STP 4 Cylinder Oil Treatment are all formulated to boost zinc (ZDDP) levels in motor oils hence the more antiwear agents ...... claim. Todays API licensed oils (SM service grade) have a zinc level of .08 wt %. All STP Oil additives will boost the zinc level of an SM oil to a .10 wt% when used in a 4 qt system (98% of cars). This level is similar to where motor oils were in early 2000 and is sufficient for stock but not racing engines from a 1964 car.

David Kellis
The Clorox Company
1221 Broadway
Room 314
Oakland, CA 94612
(510) 271-2252
[email protected]


So STP is saying, 'We'll keep you adequate, for the heavy stuff, you'll need more.'

That about jibes with what Perales is slowly going insane finding out.

:shock:

Best!

bucko Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:08 pm

I'm also using the ZDDPlus. I changed the oil in my 84 (4.7 quarts), and poured in the bottle of ZDDPlus (their web site says to add the entire bottle to 4 to 5 quarts of oil).

Here's their site:

http://www.zddplus.com/

Perales Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:23 pm

bucko wrote: I'm also using the ZDDPlus. I changed the oil in my 84 (4.7 quarts), and poured in the bottle of ZDDPlus (their web site says to add the entire bottle to 4 to 5 quarts of oil).

Here's their site:

http://www.zddplus.com/
That is a lot!
Depending on your starting levels; for example Castrol GTX 20w50, which does has a zinc level of 0.09wt%, a full bottle of ZDDP would bring the zinc level up to 0.275wt%, more than double the recommended 0.13wt%
The website's recommendations I think are for even older vehicles without cats or for oils with no zinc content at all.

msinabottle Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:23 pm

I continue my own sleuthing:

This came up tonight:

Quote: According to some web sources, zinc content as % weight:

EOS, 0.6290
STP Red, 0.1959
Crane Super Lube, 14.5600

That stuff can be found, I find, for about the same price as the ZDDP Plus. A CD-2 Product called 'CD-2 Street Legal High Performance Oil Additive' was LACED with ZDDP, but it's off the market. Turtle Wax bought CD-2 and discontinued that additive. For the Crane Super Lube, see here:

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl...er=99003-1

I'm not on the ledge... Just giggling hysterically and shrieking, 'ZDDP! ZDDP!' a lot.

:shock:

Best!

Perales Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:35 am

MS, I can see your house from here...

The numbers for Crane Super Lube Break In Concentrate are a bit suspect. The reference that I found for this product lists the Zn levels at 14.5600 wt% also list the Phosphorous levels at 69.3500 wt% This does not make sense as that would make the total concentration 83.9100 wt% which would make a rather solid lubricant (I suspect, but I am not a chemist). They also make an assembly lube (solid grease) and I suspect that the posted numbers may be confused between products. Crane does not seem to provide any technical data on line (other than what I found (and it is not from them)) and has no web contact that I could find. Hopefully someone can verify their data. The source of those numbers also questions their validity.
http://sterkel.org/systems%2Dengineering%2Dassocia...To_Use.pdf <- useful document, by the way!

tencentlife Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:10 am

Quote: I can see your house from here...

Isn't that what Jesus said to Peter?

Zowie! That is a LOT of Zn and P! Those numbers can't be right.

djkeev Mon May 04, 2015 5:19 pm

Best oil grade for my 86 WBX'er.........

I've been reading for years, listening to advice which quite honestly is all over the spectrum!

20/50 is a oft mentioned grade to use ......... But oft are the posts about noisy lifters or excessive oil pressure.

I do believe that thicker is not necessarily a good thing!

You need flow for the lifters, you need a low viscosity for cold weather, hot weather you want a thicker oil......

A few things I've siezed as Gospel.......
A quality Mann or Mahle oil filter .... No substitutes.
10/40 weight? No.
5 weight oils? No. A grade designed for newer close tolerance high MPG engine technology.

Where's that leave me?
I am not afraid of synthetic, I fully embrace synthetic, have done so for years.

My reading keeps pulling me back to this..........

Mobil 1 Full Synthetic, Silver Bottle, Silver Cap.
Weight 15/50





Why? Well in large part the concern about 20 being too heavy and 10 being too light. Sounds like 15w was made for this!
The 50 will service me in hot weather which will be the main useage, very little if any cold weather motoring.

Then let's go into Zinc and "flat" lifters. A rating of 1200 seems to be overwhelmingly recommended. This oil? 1300. Also there are many warnings about too much zinc (above 1600) and also about zinc additives either adding too much zinc and/or messing with the manufacturers addituve pack.



It also meets the API standards for highway use.

I feel good about this choice and am headed forward.

Dave

tjet Mon May 04, 2015 5:56 pm

Thanks for the tip.

I'm gonna try that M1 15w-50

t3 kopf Mon May 04, 2015 6:46 pm

What kind of oil pressure are you guys seeing at hot/cold idle with the mobile 1 synthetic 15w50?

bluebus86 Mon May 04, 2015 8:14 pm

The solution to understanding the role of the filter check valve and lifter draining is the concept that fluids seek the lowest level, which is rule # one in plumbing!

The lifters are higher up in the motor than the oil filter and oil pump, and oil sump, all connected to each other by oil passages. The lifters are fed oil from the sump via the pump and filter.

If there was no check valve in the filter, the oil in the lifter will rapidly drain back out of the lifter, thru the oil passages to the filter and then flow via more passages to the pump and out into the sump at the bottom. I have experienced this phenomena first hand.

Aerosport Tue May 05, 2015 7:03 am

Anyone tried the new Redline 10W60 or have any comments pro or con about it, and is it a viable choice for these engines?

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130&pcid=21

Das67bus Tue May 05, 2015 7:28 am

tencentlife wrote: Too late. You've lost it. Time to talk you down off the ledge.

How about some units notation for your figures above? What numbers are you expressing? Ppm? Percent? Grams? Huh?

Also, and this is what I've been harping on (otherwise this is of no immediate interest to me, but may be of use in future when my vast supply of Rotella runs out!): what are the calcium, sodium, etc. numbers for these products? If you don't know them, how can you know that these additives aren't creating the need to replace the oil at a more frequent interval?

I suppose you could do UOA's to know. But lab tests aren't very economical do do frequently on engines that only carry 5 qts.

So what type/weights of Rotella are you running? I was advised to run Rotella in my '67 bus by the engine builder who also raced VW's and builds engines. Thanks!

78busboy Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:33 pm

I only use Redline 15/50.

I change the oil every 3-4K and the Mann filter every 7K.

OG 2.1 engine, never opened, 72K miles, zero leaks, purrs like a kitten, cold starts -sometimes in winter after two weeks- like it's only been off for 5 minutes, consumes next to nothing between changes.

(Purchased from the OG owner in 2012 with 58K miles.)



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