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msinabottle Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:41 pm

I've posted on this before, but I couldn't sit this out, after all. I posted all this, but there wasn't much of a reaction:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=277706

Some very good mechanics have recommended BG MOA, which is what I have been using, in fact, it was in the first new oil I ever put in Winston. It's expensive-ish, but is a cleaning additive as well as a metallic lubricant, and is legendary--I have this from multiple sources--for preventing metal-to-metal wear in engines using it.

SUPPOSEDLY, this is the result of an earlier heated discussion, STP red, which is officially known as 'STP 4 Cylinder Motor Oil Treatment' is MUCH cheaper and has more ZDDP in it. I've been looking for it at multiple FLAPS for some time, and haven't found it once. Still looking.

A tweaked variant of GM EOS is out--supposedly still a good source of ZDDP. I need to duck into a GM dealer and find out how much it is going for 'on the street.'

It's not, of course, a price per unit cost that's of concern, it's a price per USE. That, I'm still researching. But I will never change Winston's oil again without something in there to keep his engine from tearing itself apart.

Best!

funagon Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:09 am

I've recently found that the Mobil 1 full synthetic "high mileage" formulations still have the CI/SL rating. Expensive at the FLAPS. Much cheaper by the gallon at Wal Mart (even though I hate Wal Mart).

EDIT: I just looked at the bottle and it actually says "API SL/CF."

bucko Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:39 am

funagon wrote: I've recently found that the Mobil 1 full synthetic "high mileage" formulations still have the CI/SL rating. Expensive at the FLAPS. Much cheaper by the gallon at Wal Mart (even though I hate Wal Mart).

Well, Your post interested me, in that I have been searching for an oil I could buy "off the shelf" with a recommended level of ZDDP already in it, without having to buy an additive. I have not found the additive that MSINABOTTLE uses, nor can I find anyone that still carries the older rating oil that TENCENTLIFE was able to buy up and store away. So, I went to this site to investigate the content of your Mobil 1 full synthetic "high mileage" oil and see what it's ZDDP level was:

HTTP://WWW.OIL-101.com/S/MOBILE_1_SYNTHETIC_OIL

It then pointed me to a PDF table that lists the levels and ratings (CS,CI, etc) of all the Mobil oils. Here is the link to that table:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

I was disapointed to find that the oil you mentioned has a ZDDP content of 1000, or .10, which is lower than the recommended value of .13 or better. Good, but still lower than what is recommended for our flat tappet engines.

The table did show a Mobile brand, with a CI-4 rating with a level of 1200 (.12) that goes by the name of Mobil 1 Extended Performance. I will have to see if that is on the shelf of my local FLAPS.

It also listed a turbo desiel oil with a rating of 1300 (.13), but a foot note at the bottom of the table mentioned that this oil will be reformulated in early 2008 to 1100 (.11). Sigh.

It listed a "Mobil 1 V-Twin" having a ZDDP level of 1600 (.16), but this is used in V-Twin motorcycle engines (I use it in my Harley), and it mentions this oil is for motorcycles that require a wet clutch lubrication. I'm not sure if this would be alright to use in a watercooled engine, as the "clutch lubrication" has me wondering if it's safe for automotive use.

So, the oil your using is better than other brands, but still not containing enough ZDDP. If it has the CI-4 rating, I'll bet it also has a CI/CS/CL rating as well, meaning it is safe in newer engines (meaning those equipped with catalitic converters). As TENCENTLIFE points out, you want a CI-4 ONLY rating, and watch out for a CI-4/CI/CS/CL combined rating. Safe to use in your flat tappet engine yes, but a lower ZDDP rating, which will not provide those of us that want the higher content of anti friction ZDDP.

My search for an oil I CAN BUY OFF A SHELF AT A LOCAL FLAPS continues, without having to order by the case online.

multimac Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:36 am

sagebus wrote: OK I am really getting cornfused on all this oil info. I am not a chemist nor mechanic. Shell Rotella T 15W-40 is what I use in my 1.9 ltr. WBX. I read the article suggested by multimac, The article said the oil was formulated for engines built before 1973 with flat tappets and is not to be used in a car with a catalytic converter. Motorhead Classic Hi-Z motor oil, 15W-40, zinc/phosphorous level .125 percent. $14.50 Gal. multimac you are going to use it in your 84 WBX ? Do you not have a catalytic converter ? Do the 1.9 ltr. WBX's have flat tappets ?

Yes, for my next oil change, I will be using it in my Westy this season. I would rather replace my cat coverter than damage a good engine (it's in it's prime at 68K miles). It does have flat tappets which have so far been preserved using Castrol full synthetic, but now even that formulation is at the SM level, thus the current SL level oil in it will be the last of this type, I can't find it anymore. It is a shame that such a significant change was never really announced in the general media. I thank the good contributors at Samba for alerting me to these changes.

Perales Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:44 am

multimac wrote: It is a shame that such a significant change was never really announced in the general media. I thank the good contributors at Samba for alerting me to these changes.
Can you spell "class action"? Maybe we can all get free rebuilds from "Big Oil" ](*,)

funagon Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:59 am

Good detective work bucko. I didn't do enough research to find the chart you linked to. I just went to the store looking for a rating of CI/SL or better (pre-CI/SL). The Mobil 1 synthetic I found simply says "API SL/CF." This is the "high mileage" 10w-40 at the top of page 2 on the chart you referenced.

That chart lists the phosphorus level as .10, but is that the same thing as ZDDP? According to tencent's post (earlier in this thread) it's the Zinc in ZDDP that prevents premature wear, and the phosphorus is some kind of transport agent for the zinc. I don't have any working knowledge of chemestry but it seems possible that there's a difference between measuring phosphorus and measuring ZDDP. If this Mobil-1 high mileage is API SL/CF then it ought to be the right stuff. Or am I missing something because I haven't memorized all the oil discussions on the samba?

But as you pointed out the chart also shows mobil-1 15w-50 "extended performance" with phosphorus at .12, for "Flat tappet applications." I'm also going to look for that on the shelf at my local FLAPS or Wally world for the next oil change.

riceye Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:00 am

Quote: It then pointed me to a PDF table that lists the levels and ratings (CS,CI, etc) of all the Mobil oils. Here is the link to that table:

Hey, Bucko, that's the same page I offered in my first post on this thread!

The Mobil1 Extended Performance 15w-50 does, indeed, have the higher (0.12%) concentration needed for long term health of flat-tappet engines. And the cost is the same as regular Mobil1 formulations where I shop, although it does not share the same sale pricing when the regular Mobil1 goes on sale.

The page that tencent Chris offered is a very good read:http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html. It has a FAQ list at the bottom of the page that is chock full pertinant facts.

Apparently, having more ZDDP than about 0.15-0.20% will be detrimental to several engine components, and there is very real concern about additives (ZDDPlus, STP, GM EOS, etc.) screwing up the original oil's detergent balance in the formulation. I'd be very cautious going down that road.

FWIW, Charles Navarro does speak very highly of Brad Penn, Swepco and Royal Purple oils. The Mobil1 extended Performance was also listed a a good choice. Curiously, LN Engineering is a distributor for these brands.

I would agree, finding an oil that fulfills the need for zinc without having to include an additive seems the most prudent course. And it would appear the Mobil1 Extended Performance 15w-50 is not a bad choice, and is nationally available.

Salud!
Ric

RCB Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:44 am

For what its worth I found Bradd Penns motor oil at a local speed shop called Gotelli's. If you have a speed shop listed in your Yellow Pages chances are they may carry it.
If they dont list a speed shop per say....look under engine rebuilders.

The whole idea behind lowering the zinc and phosphate levels in motor oil was the idea of our "leaders" who want the auto industry to guarantee a catalytic converter to function for 100,000 miles.

Racing oils, like Brad Penns fall into a different catagory, and even though it is a "synthentic" it only contains 5% synthetic,the rest is Pennsylvania's finest.

tencentlife Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:57 am

Quote: The Mobil1 extended Performance was also listed a a good choice. Curiously, LN Engineering is a distributor for these brands.

Charles offers those brands because they're some of the ones that will work, nicht wahr?

Mobil1 Extended Perf is one product that I believe meets our needs. I was torn between that and the Rotella synth I settled on.

Quote: Apparently, having more ZDDP than about 0.15-0.20% will be detrimental to several engine components, and there is very real concern about additives (ZDDPlus, STP, GM EOS, etc.) screwing up the original oil's detergent balance in the formulation. I'd be very cautious going down that road.


That is exactly the point I made above, and it's good to reinforce it, Ric. The synergistic chemistries are very complicated and it could be pretty hard to predict the side effects of any particular additive, especially when it is so hard to find out exactly what is in any brand's additive package. They are proprietary and often closely-held secrets. An additive may work fine with one lubricant and not so fine with another. Rob is a big fan of the BG MOA, on the advice of mechanics he trusts, and it may well be a fine product but I would want to see actual lab testing or an evaluation of the chemical interactions by someone who studies these things before I would make it part of my long-term maintenance program. Anecdotal accounts on the order of "I used this and haven't had problems" , as if they ever carry much weight, have even less here because the effects of low EP protection will be gradual and not noticeable to the driver (I'm not accusing you of such behavior, Rob, but it is heard all too often). Only visual inspection of internal engine components over time would reveal any trouble brewing in most cases. And like I said, the ZDDP only goes to work when the oil film fails. If the engine is oiling itself well all the time, and oil temp is kept within bounds, then even the correct ZDDP content is just an insurance policy you never cash in on.

More of a good thing is not always better. Case in point is Charles' evaluation of the STP red-bottle 4-cylinder Engine Treatment vs. their blue-bottle engine oil additive. They both have high levels of ZDDP, but the detergent levels in the blue bottle will have a detrimental effect on the oil's detergency, lower its TBN (Total Base Number) and shorten the oil's service life. That makes it OK to use for the short-term, but you would have to change oil often like racers do because the TBN would crash as a result of adding it. High TBN is one of the key requirements for long drain intervals. Many fleet operators use this as their indicator of when oil service is needed; when TBN drops to half, the oil gets changed.

By the way, I've looked for the red-bottle STP in every FLAPS I enter, but have yet to see it on the shelves. The blue bottle, meanwhile, is in every store. I've never seen BG MOA for sale anywhere, either.

Seems some of the oil makers have decided that there is a niche and are featuring some products as suitable for older valvetrains, but you still have to read closely. Here's the thing: if it has CJ-4 or SM on the label, it is sure to have Z and P levels below 10ppm, because that is the maximum allowed for those ratings. Emphasis is on maximum allowed. A product whose highest rating is SL or CI-4 does not necessarily have levels in excess of 10ppm (although most do); they can have anything up to but not more than the allowable maximum for that rating. The rating standards are not a requirement, they are a cap. Some of the products featured as suitable for older motors don't still have only about 10ppm Z.

So here's what you really need to do to be sure, and thankfully the internet offers the resources to get the real info you need to make an informed choice. Manufacturers product data sheets are a good and accessible place to start, but as Charles and others have found, their advertised levels don't always test out to be so in a private Virgin Oil Analysis. There is a forum at BobistheOilGuy.com where people post their VOA results. This is the best clearing-house I've found for the data you need to compare products. I know this is a lot of extra work but the oil makers aren't going to do it for you. Luckily, other people are willing to lay out their good money for private testing, and you have access to their results.

The link to the product I decided on is here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=478490#Post478490

From there you can click up the forum tree and find your way to whatever product classes you're interested in, and chances are very good that someone has posted at least one VOA for it.

bucko Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:53 am

Thanks TENCENTLIFE for re-typing the information you provided in a post on this awhile back.

Like you, I cannot find additives that others have used, although (and again nothing personal) there is no documented proof that the additive AND oil used is indeed providing the wear protection we (or at least me) seek.

Unfortunately, I now live in an apartment complex that is not going to allow me to tear down an engine and mic and blueprint it looking for wear indications based upon a combination I wanted to test out for oil and an additive. Nor would I really want to!

I also don't want to have to buy via the internet an oil that suits my requirements unless I HAVE to. I plan to look for the Mobil 1 "Extended Performance" this weekend and hopefully will get lucky.

Otherwise, a call to the folks that make the ZDDP plus may be in order, so I can get their data on what oil I can use as the "base", along with their additive to give me a happy margin of .13 to .15

bucko Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:55 am

"Quote:
It then pointed me to a PDF table that lists the levels and ratings (CS,CI, etc) of all the Mobil oils. Here is the link to that table:


Hey, Bucko, that's the same page I offered in my first post on this thread! "

Sorry RICEYE, I did not intend to take credit for that table. I guess this thread got lengthy, and I did not go back and re-read the previous posts.

riceye Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:05 am

No offense taken! I was humored by it.

This thread is seeming less and less redundant. Some good and updated info. And the link to "bobistheoilguy" is very useful. Some great current info there.

Prosit,
Ric

tencentlife Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:09 am

Wel, Bob IS the Oil Guy, after all.

bucko Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:21 am

Hre is a bit more research I did from the ZddPLUS site:

3.98 ounces of their product contains .18 zinc.
6.36 zinc % by weight
4.59 Phosphorous by weight
Z:P ratio is 1:37:1

According to their site, adding 4 ounces to a 4 to 5 quart SL rated oil will increase the zinc level to that required by older flat tappet engines. Since most oils today are in the range of 600 to 800 ppm (.06 to .08), adding 4 ounces of their product raises the zinc to .18 - .20

It also went on to say what TENCENTLIFE's posts talked about, in that the zinc deteriorates (gets used up) over time, but will last the average length of an oil change. It also stated that as long as a film of oil is present, the zinc does nothing; it "acts" as a anti-wear protection on dry metal.

So what the heck would this mean to me? I plan to go back to Castrol 10-40 or 20-50 (depending on time of year; outside temps) and add this into my oil change.

bucko Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:55 am

And here is one more chart to post for those who have an interest in the amount of zinc (last column) in the oil they are currently using. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS TABLE COULD ALREADY BE OUT OF DATE, AS MANY OIL MANUFACTURERS ARE CHANGING THEIR FORMULA EACH YEAR.
(example: I bolded CASRTOL GTX to show it's zinc percentage of .12):

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-50

AMSOIL(new) 155 474 -47 <.05 ---
Castrol GTX 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .90 ---
Quaker State Dlx. 155 430 -25 .90 ---
Red Line 164 503 -49 --- ---
Royal Purple 138 435 -44 --- --- **
Shell Truck Guard 130 450 -15 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 --- .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 --- .13
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-40

AMSOIL 124 500 -49 --- ---
Castrol Multi-Grade 110 440 -15 .85 .12
Quaker State 121 415 -15 .90 ---

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
15W-50

Chevron 204 415 -18 .96 .11
Mobil 1 180 430 -55 --- ---
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 166 503 -49 --- ---

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
5W-50

Castrol Syntec 180 437 -45 1.2 ---
Quaker State Synquest 173 457 -76 --- ---
Quaker State Prem.Syn 177 435 -35 --- --- **
Pennzoil Performax 176 --- -69 --- ---

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
5W-40

Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4 ---

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel

AMSOIL 170 460 -60 <.05 ---




Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
15W-40

AMSOIL(new) 157 446 -49 <.05 ---
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400 136 421 -27 1.0 ---
Exxon XD3 --- 417 -11 .90 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 Super Syn (NEW) 155 491 -49 --- --- ** (Auctually 15W 50)
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 155 495 -40 --- ---
Royal Purple 149 400 -49 --- --- ** (Auctually 10W 40)
Shell Rotella w/XLA 146 410 -25 1.0 .13
Valvoline All Fleet 140 --- -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13



Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
10W-30

AMSOIL 171 464 -54 <.05 ---
AMSOIL XL-7500 148 471 -54 <.05 ---
Castrol GTX 140 415 -33 .85 .12
Castrol Syntec 157 455 -54 --- .10
Chevron Supreme 150 401 -26 .96 .11
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 --- 430 -60 --- ---
Mobil 1 Super Syn.(NEW) 145 455 -49 --- --- **
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0 ---
Quaker State 156 410 -30 .90 ---
Quaker State Prem Syn 148 440 -40 --- --- **
Red Line 150 475 -40 --- ---
Royal Purple 148 400 -49 --- --- **
Shell Fire and Ice 155 410 -35 .90 .12
Shell Super 2000 155 410 -35 1.0 .13
Shell Truck Guard 155 405 -35 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40 --- ---
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12



Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
5W-30

AMSOIL 186 478 -60 <.05 ---
AMSOIL XL-7500 160 464 -60 <.05 ---
Castrol GTX 156 400 -35 .80 .12
Chevron Supreme 202? 354 -46 .96 .11
Chevron Supreme Synth. 165 446 -72 1.1 .12
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0 ---
Mobil 1 150 430 -65 --- ---
Mobil 1 Super Syn (NEW) 169 455 -54 --- --- **
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .10
Quaker State 165 405 -35 .9 ---
Quaker State Prem Syn 151 440 -49 --- --- **
Red Line 165 455 -49 --- ---
Royal Purple 160 395 -44 --- --- **
Shell Fire and Ice 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12



Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
0W-30

AMSOIL 188 460 -76 --- ---
Mobil 1 175 460 -65 --- ---
Mobil 1 Super Syn (NEW) 176 450 -65 --- --- **

oasis Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:18 am

If going with Royal Purple -- the original question -- go with Max Cycle 20w50. I am quite certain additives were discouraged at Jake Raby's site where Chris is a regular poster.

Perales Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:19 pm

I have been getting a few PMs asking for the Canadian ZddPlus Rep.
He quoted me a price for a sixpac delivered (ExpressPost) of $76.00 +GST

Browns lane Jaguar Parts
46 Bishop Crescent
Markham, Ontario
Canada, L3P 4N6
Attn: Tom Owen
Telephone: 905-294-4946
Canada Toll Free: 1-800-832-8986
FAX: 905-294-0782
email: [email protected]

Just as a side note: The US mail-order seller quoted me:
#7178 Six-Pack of the Four-Ounce Bottles of ZDDPlusT $59.70 / six-pack plus shipping (about $20 to Canada) (+ GST at the border)

I think am going this route (order from Canada) with Castrol GTX 20W 50. I'll let you know in a few years how it works out.

Perales Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:23 pm

bucko wrote: And here is one more chart to post for those who have an interest in the amount of zinc (last column) in the oil they are currently using. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS TABLE COULD ALREADY BE OUT OF DATE, AS MANY OIL MANUFACTURERS ARE CHANGING THEIR FORMULA EACH YEAR.
(example: I bolded CASRTOL GTX to show it's zinc percentage of .12):


Earlier in this thread I posted the latest Technical specs of Castrol GTX and it currently stands at 0.09 zinc

msinabottle Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:03 pm

First of all, Chris, don't worry, I'm not bothered that anecdotal evidence isn't enough for you--I'd like something I could trust, more, too. But BG MOA is something I can get and that a lot of the hotrodders in the Denver area are using. They, too, have hard-working flat tappet engines. BG MOA's biggest reputation, though, comes from its ability to prevent metal-on-metal wear in engines, exactly the issue we're facing. Here's a URL for the product:

http://www.bgprod.com/products/engineoil.html

and off the home page is a county-by-county listing of BG's distributors. We can get BG MOA up here in Denver, Chris, at NAPA and CarQuest stores. They also make another product called 'Engine Performance Concentrate' that mentions lubricants.

10C's point about the other additives playing hob with the oil, is, of course, valid. But we've got to find SOMETHING to save our engines, that oil is a-oxidizing even now. I'd like to see if anyone can find the STP 4-Cylinder treatment and test that. But, for the moment, BG MOA until I can get something demonstrably better or as good and cheaper!

Best!

Perales Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:14 pm

My ZddPlus just arrived. (a day and a half!) from the Canadian source (he even threw in a few candies in the box) I am going to give this a good try. The website has some good information in it and I don't think it is snake oil. I am going to stay with Castrol GTX 20W50 which is what I have been using and is readily available at my FLAPS.

This thread along with all of the previous ones dealing with this issue have been very helpful in educating my poor little brain. There is of course no right answer but it helps to at least be comfortable with our decisions. My eyes glazed over with all the technical stuff for a long time until it finally started sinking in. I would like to thank everyone for their patients and willingness to "repeat until it sticks". I think I have really learned something here with your help. Again, my choices are my own, I wouldn't necessarily say it is even the best way to go, but I at least feel confident that I understand my decision rather than be at the mercy of some random mechanic somewhere.
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