TheSamba.com :: View topic - Ever done before? Porsche 924 or 944 engine in Vanagon?

Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:06 am

TJC wrote: Well I've done some simple measurements on my 924S 2.5 engine and I'm inclined not to use this as a swap since it would involve a fair amount of fabrication to satisfy the length of the engine and accomodate the sensors on the bellhousing, etc.

Hey Tom,

Would you mind sharing your specific findings just to satisfy curiosity or in case some is so inclined to try to do this swap?

Specifically, how long is the engine from where it mates to the bellhousing to the pulleys or whatever the furthest point to the front of the engine. Secondly, which sensors are in a compromised position.

Thanks?

BenT

Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:05 am

Hi Ben!

I just did a quicky measurement and you'd probably need to allow for about 30" for the length of the engine.
There are two engine speed sensors on the bellhousing that would need to be accommodated and of course the flywheel one would use would need to be modified to send the signal to these sensors.

Hope this helps.
Tom

Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:27 pm

TJC wrote: Hi Ben!

I just did a quicky measurement and you'd probably need to allow for about 30" for the length of the engine.
There are two engine speed sensors on the bellhousing that would need to be accommodated and of course the flywheel one would use would need to be modified to send the signal to these sensors.

Hope this helps.
Tom

Just wondering out loud, Tom. I assume one of those sensors is a speed sensor. I've seen Subie guys modify those to fit on the CV or axle. Is the second one a crank position sensor?

BenT

Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:01 pm

There are two speed sensors and a seperate TDC sensor.

Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:39 pm

loogy wrote:
By the looks of those cad plated brackets and adapter, is somebody making a kit for those?

Yep. A swedish company does these. Lots of volvo-powered T3s on the roads of Sweden.

http://www.smt.nu/default.asp?Expand=2&Display=1 It´s in Swedish, just google translate it.

Tue May 03, 2011 10:55 pm

No, I'm not dead (yet). I have researched this on and off for a bit. Here is the measurement on the 968 engine, which I assume is similar to the 944:

Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 10:26:52 AM
Subject: Re: Porsche 968 16v dimensions?
Hello,
The 968 engine is 26" tall, 27" long, and 22" wide from mount to mount. Hope this helps.
Thanks,
Albert Broadfoot

I have doka, so guess what, I have essentially no height restriction that vans do.

Anyway, so the next question I have is, if the SA bell housing will fit a 924 engine, then somebody, and I mean somebody must have made an adapter to fit a 944 engine onto a 924 bellhousing!!

Then the next question is, since the stock Vanagon transmission is such crap, would you put a Porsche transmission in the back anyway? And is there an adapter to put a 944/968 block onto a 911 type transmission?

Madness yes, but this is a thread about putting Porsche stuff in our VW's, so why not ask the questions!
:shock:

TJC wrote: Hi Ben!

I just did a quicky measurement and you'd probably need to allow for about 30" for the length of the engine.
There are two engine speed sensors on the bellhousing that would need to be accommodated and of course the flywheel one would use would need to be modified to send the signal to these sensors.

Hope this helps.
Tom

Wed May 04, 2011 8:27 am

I've also spent a fair amount of time researching the possibility of using a 944/968 based engine and have determined that it will require a fair amount of fabrication.

The earlier 924 Audi based engine may be able to use the SA bellhousing and other SA bits, but the 944/968 engine will not. The bellhousings used in the early 924 are completely different than the ones used for the 944/968. The bolt patterns at the back of the block are also different.

In the least, to use the 944/968 engine one would need to fabricate a bellhousing, or bellhousing adaptor to mate with the Vanagon or a Porsche (such as a 915) transmission. Then the issue of a flywheel must be addressed...possibly using a 944/968 center (for the bolt pattern on the crank) mated to a Vanagon or Porsche outer. Then you need to consider the input shaft, pilot bearing and other clutch related issues. As I mentioned before, the timing and speed sensors are mounted on the stock 944/968 bellhousings and the sender is in the flywheel, so this issue to needs to be addressed.

Then of course you have the engine mounting concerns, exhaust system, cooling system and so forth to deal with.

I have no doubt that given enough resources, this swap may be done and I believe it would be pretty spectacular. However after factoring in the time and cost I decided it wasn't for me. I narrowed my choices down to either using an early 924 Turbo engine or a 911 based engine. I have since picked up a 911 engine that I will be rebuilding and either use a Kennedy flywheel conversion so I may use the Vanagon transmission or I may pick up a 915 Porsche transmission. I feel that this is a fairly straightforward swap and since our Westy is aircooled I won't need to deal with the water cooling system issues. I have also been in touch with a person who has done this swap and he has been very helpful with his comments.

I was also in touch with a friend of mine in Germany who used to work for Porsche and had driven the B32 Porsche/Vanagons and was very enthusiastic about them...like chasing down BMWs at over 100 MPH!!!

Plus there's that wonderful 911 sound!

Good luck with your research and keep us posted.

Wed May 04, 2011 5:27 pm

So will a 915 transmission bolt to a Vanagon bellhousing, stock or SA?

TJC wrote:

In the least, to use the 944/968 engine one would need to fabricate a bellhousing, or bellhousing adaptor to mate with the Vanagon or a Porsche (such as a 915) transmission. Then the issue of a flywheel must be addressed...possibly using a 944/968 center (for the bolt pattern on the crank) mated to a Vanagon or Porsche outer. Then you need to consider the input shaft, pilot bearing and other clutch related issues. As I mentioned before, the timing and speed sensors are mounted on the stock 944/968 bellhousings and the sender is in the flywheel, so this issue to needs to be addressed.

Good luck with your research and keep us posted.

Thu May 05, 2011 8:20 am

No, the 915 does not have a seperate bolt on bellhousing like the Vanagon trans...it is cast as part of the whole trans housing so an adaptor would need to be fabricated to use the 915 trans with the 944/968 engine.

Also the 915 used a cable operated clutch, so the trans would need to be converted to a hydraulically operated system...which is not that big of deal.

Thu May 05, 2011 11:09 am

I don't usually express opinions here, but I will on this one.

As much as I like the idea of oddball swaps and pretty engines, I have to say that the 924/944 8V engines were pretty low-tech engines with high tech engine management and high tech metallurgy to mitigate the basic design problems. Inline 4 cylinder engines at 2.5 litres and over need balance shafts to run at all smoothly. The balance shafts are really a patch. Kudos to Porsche for using the same line to manufacture the V8 and the 2.5 4-cylinder, but the compromise was - - vibration.

Pontiac tried this with their early 1960's Tempest with half a 326 V8. Bad move. It weighed almost as much as the V8 and shook badly, needing super soft motor mounts. (See? I really do like oddball stuff!)

VAG got it right with the 1.8T which is light years ahead in being small enough to run smoothly and being designed from the start to be turbocharged. It's also available by the thousands. Although I won't be using one (got my SVX on the engine stand and a later diesel swap in the planning stage) , I think it might just be the wave of the future for gasoline powered swaps.

Oh, did I mention how crazily expensive a part gets with the Porsche name on it?

I think this swap makes only a little more sense than using an Offenhauser 4.1 litre 4 cylinder - - it's also a beautiful engine to look at, shakes horribly, is very expensive and is so rare you can't get parts. The 924/944 engines belong in vintage 924's and 944's.

Save the Porsches!

Thu May 05, 2011 11:36 am

Howesight wrote:
Oh, did I mention how crazily expensive a part gets with the Porsche name on it?

A buddy, who helps me wrench now and again, is a big Porsche 911 fan (there are 2 in his garage). He loves to come over and look through my MG catalogs to see how cheap the parts are compared to anything with the Porsche name on it. He frequently shocks me with some seemingly common part that is 4-5x more expensive since it says Porsche on it.

Thu May 05, 2011 1:36 pm

I will agree with you on one point, I saw a 1.8T conversion coupled to a 996 transmission in a Vanagon. It was somewhere on this forum or another. I forget whether they just bolted right up or not.

Howesight wrote: I don't usually express opinions here, but I will on this one.

As much as I like the idea of oddball swaps and pretty engines, I have to say that the 924/944 8V engines were pretty low-tech engines with high tech engine management and high tech metallurgy to mitigate the basic design problems. Inline 4 cylinder engines at 2.5 litres and over need balance shafts to run at all smoothly. The balance shafts are really a patch. Kudos to Porsche for using the same line to manufacture the V8 and the 2.5 4-cylinder, but the compromise was - - vibration.

Pontiac tried this with their early 1960's Tempest with half a 326 V8. Bad move. It weighed almost as much as the V8 and shook badly, needing super soft motor mounts. (See? I really do like oddball stuff!)

VAG got it right with the 1.8T which is light years ahead in being small enough to run smoothly and being designed from the start to be turbocharged. It's also available by the thousands. Although I won't be using one (got my SVX on the engine stand and a later diesel swap in the planning stage) , I think it might just be the wave of the future for gasoline powered swaps.

Oh, did I mention how crazily expensive a part gets with the Porsche name on it?

I think this swap makes only a little more sense than using an Offenhauser 4.1 litre 4 cylinder - - it's also a beautiful engine to look at, shakes horribly, is very expensive and is so rare you can't get parts. The 924/944 engines belong in vintage 924's and 944's.

Save the Porsches!