TheSamba.com :: View topic - Bad starter or something else? (Fixed and thanks)

Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:49 am

Howdy Samba Land

I’m having some trouble with starting my 72 Westy campervan and I’m thinking it’s the starter. I’ve ordered one from Busdepot. While I wait, I was wondering if folks would be willing to give me some advice on other problems to look for tonight and/of if I’ve got the right problem figured out.

The symptoms:

1.) Lights are bright and stay on, radio works, horn works. New battery seems to be charging.
2.) Turn the key and I get nothing (no sound).
3.) When I bang on the solenoid and starter, I can get a little noise when I turn the key. Kind of short bursts of scratching noises. (stuck brush?). But no amount of banging will get it to fully turn over.
4.) All wires seem to be attached and connections seem good. (limited knowledge of this)
5.) Push starting the bus will work and I am able to drive with no problems. (Lil’ Sunshine-esque)
6.) Gapped the solenoid terminals as per Muir, no sound
7.) Pushed the van backwards in 3rd as per Muir, no change.
8.) It began as just being difficult to get it to turn over, took a lot of time and the sound it made sounded a lot weaker than a strong start. Quickly got worse and then wouldn’t start at all.

Is the starter diagnosis correct?

Anything else I could check on tonight while I wait for the starter? (I have Muir and Bently so pages would be great and/or pics)

Anyone in Boston area willing to give me a hand with this?

Thanks for the help and I appreciate the time

Malokin

p.s. I did a search and researched a bit on here, but I thought a new thread would be helpfull in presenting my specific symptoms.

Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:55 am

Almost sounds like an ignition switch. I always like the test of the key "ON" and the bus in neutral. Cross the starter solenoid with a screwdriver (be careful) if the starter cranks like it should then you have a wiring problem.

Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:57 am

Matt Wilson wrote: Almost sounds like an ignition switch. I always like the test of the key "ON" and the bus in neutral. Cross the starter solenoid with a screwdriver (be careful) if the starter cranks like it should then you have a wiring problem.

Quote: 6.) Gapped the solenoid terminals as per Muir, no sound

Is this the same thing? I got a spark, but didn't notice any sound. Is it loud? the starter and motor are two separate "tubes" right?

This is what I did.....

Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:29 am

You should get more than a spark, either a solid CLICK or motor noises.
Jumping between the big terminal with the cable from the battery on it and the spade should give you a click and turn the engine, jumping between the two big terminals should give you at least a whirring noise.

Make sure it's out of gear.

Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:31 am

When you try to crank your motor with your lights on, do they dim a lot. If they do, you may have a dead battery. Not enough to start but enough to run the lights. Or use a multimeter to see what kind of voltage drop you are getting, if any, when trying to crank the motor.

Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:38 pm

Try adding a relay to the engine compartment where the ignition switch(ed) 12v+ wire passes through to the starter. If this solves the problem - it is because your 30 year old wiring has corroded and has imposed a substantial 'voltage drop' in its 15 foot run from the switch to starter.

Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:01 pm

volksterii wrote: When you try to crank your motor with your lights on, do they dim a lot. If they do, you may have a dead battery. Not enough to start but enough to run the lights. Or use a multimeter to see what kind of voltage drop you are getting, if any, when trying to crank the motor.

Quote: 1.) Lights are bright and stay on, radio works, horn works. New battery seems to be charging.

Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:04 pm

busdaddy wrote: You should get more than a spark, either a solid CLICK or motor noises.
Jumping between the big terminal with the cable from the battery on it and the spade should give you a click and turn the engine, jumping between the two big terminals should give you at least a whirring noise.

I'm unfamiliar with the spade. Which part is this?

p.s. thanks for all the great responces so far. I really appreciate it!

Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:20 pm

The spade is the small flat male post sticking out of the front end of the solenoid that the female spade terminal on the small wire fits on to. This is where the start signal arrives at the starter/solenoid. When you make this spade hot by jumping from the big B+ wire on the starter your solenoid should engage and your starter should turn over.

Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:12 pm

So I thought I may have gapped the solenoid towers wrong, so I tried it again… just pretty sparks again, no click or sounds.

Also, I know that the bottom screw holding the starter on is around 16mm, but I couldn’t get a fit on the top one that’s out of view. Is the top one 16mm as well?

Thanks again.

Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:26 pm

Malokin Martin wrote: So I thought I may have gapped the solenoid towers wrong, so I tried it again… just pretty sparks again, no click or sounds.

Also, I know that the bottom screw holding the starter on is around 16mm, but I couldn’t get a fit on the top one that’s out of view. Is the top one 16mm as well?

Thanks again.

The bolt on top is removed from inside the engine compartment. It is just a round bolt head on the starter side, nut on the other side in the engine compartment.

I think yer starter is FUBARed... 8)

Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:37 pm

busfreak_71 wrote: Malokin Martin wrote: So I thought I may have gapped the solenoid towers wrong, so I tried it again… just pretty sparks again, no click or sounds.

Also, I know that the bottom screw holding the starter on is around 16mm, but I couldn’t get a fit on the top one that’s out of view. Is the top one 16mm as well?

Thanks again.

The bolt on top is removed from inside the engine compartment. It is just a round bolt head on the starter side, nut on the other side in the engine compartment.

I think yer starter is FUBARed... 8)

Aw crap. Man I feel stupid. I thought that maybe it was just congealed oil that was keeping the hex from sticking on there. Argh. So much frustration for a nut that wasn't even there. HAAAAAAA

Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:58 pm

Malokin Martin wrote: busfreak_71 wrote: Malokin Martin wrote: So I thought I may have gapped the solenoid towers wrong, so I tried it again… just pretty sparks again, no click or sounds.

Also, I know that the bottom screw holding the starter on is around 16mm, but I couldn’t get a fit on the top one that’s out of view. Is the top one 16mm as well?

Thanks again.

The bolt on top is removed from inside the engine compartment. It is just a round bolt head on the starter side, nut on the other side in the engine compartment.

I think yer starter is FUBARed... 8)

Aw crap. Man I feel stupid. I thought that maybe it was just congealed oil that was keeping the hex from sticking on there. Argh. So much frustration for a nut that wasn't even there. HAAAAAAA

Yep, I know what you mean, took me a while to figure that one out too. Just a trick for when you put that bolt back in so it does not get pushed back when you put the nut back on is to either have some one hold the bolt while you put the nut on or put some plumbers putty on the underside of the round head of the bolt and press it into the hole, worked pretty damn good for me!

Not bad for a 16 year old, eh? 8)

Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:24 pm

I had a similar problem, I got my starter rebuilt and it just wouldn't turn the motor.

So I bought the new High-torque Bosch starter installed it and it started right up.

Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:03 pm

I had a very similar problem today in my '77 2.0L.

Drove about 100 miles, and stopped for food. Came back, turned the key, and nothing. Lights worked, radio worked, but the started refused to turn. When I turned the key the lights would dim, so something was drawing current (I guess).

Pop started the van, and got home. When I arrived, I shut off the engine, and immediately tried to start it again. Fired right up.

So why was I stuck earlier? Maybe my alternator not charging my battery during the first half of the trip? If that was it, why did I get a nice quick start after getting home? Maybe the alternator belt was slipping?

When I was stuck, I though I could smell some electrical 'burn' under the dash, but I couldn't find anything suspect. Is there a switch there that can burn typically during a key turn to start?

Any ideas?

Malokin, did you ever figure out your problem?

Thanks,

-Les

Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:27 pm

This was my first real shot at fixing something that went tits-up on the bus… AND… she beat me….. I learned a lot about the inner workings of the beast, bathed in the caked grease of the undercarriage and got to dink around a couple of fun weekends, but I had to throw in the towel as it was a, “move it or the city of Boston will tow it for street cleaning” kind of deal. So I push started it and took it to the local VW guru who will be looking it over on Tuesday.

I ended up replacing the battery, battery cables and starter and still no change. I imagine it’s an ignition switch or ground somewhere that’s fouled. I’ll post back when I get the diagnosis.

p.s. my lights didn't dim like yours though and mine was a progressively worse thing not all of a sudden deal. I imagine if it's not a wire/fuse issue, it's a battery issue for you.

Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:13 pm

Turns out it was the starter and some other small stuff. I had trouble figuring out how to transfer over some of the wiring from the old to the new starter and the configuration of the male/female terminals was a little different on the new boch. A wire was also shorting out somewhere close to the starter motor.

Hope this helps. Thanks for all the advice posted here.

lesman: Did you ever figure out what went wrong with yours.