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Sat May 31, 2008 10:53 am

Deadline day! Since it's running and moving shall we declare victory?

Sat May 31, 2008 3:12 pm

Day 31

GeorgeL wrote: Deadline day! Since it's running and moving shall we declare victory?

We shall! I drove it about 10 miles or so today. Awesome!!! Feels like a regular car!

I replaced the clutch slave and master cylinders. That cured my clutch problem. It was kind of an interesting failure mode. I don't quite understand it. Neither of them were leaking fluid at all, yet they couldn't push the clutch lever enough to engage the clutch. The master took about 10 minutes and the slave about 20 minutes to replace.

I replaced the alternator with a rebuilt one a few days ago. Now I have charging.

I ran into an electrical glitch over the past couple days (some PO had butchered the harness to the second oxygen sensor. I kept shorting the fuse to the main relay. I couldn't figure it out, but Tom Shiels spent about 30 minutes or so on the phone yesterday helping me figure it out. His helpfulness alone was worth the price of the wiring harness. I highly recommend Tom - he is a great guy. Hope to meet him someday.

Now my only remaining problem is the shifter. Somehow with the new shifter bushings on the transmission end, my shifter is no longer in alignment, so I can't easily get into first or second. So for my voyage, I just crawled under the van and moved the lever into second....then I cruised around town.....and down the highway a few miles...and up a couple hills. Awesome! I hit about 50 in second gear at redline. Effortlessly. Nice.

It did stumble once after that - cruising around 4krpm it seemed like it was fuel starved and wanted to die. Slowed down to get ready to pull over and it came back to life. I wonder if that is what the limp home mode is like?

I think I'll call it success!

Mrs Ranchero must now buy me a grogger of IPA! Now I'll stoke up the wood-fired tub and see if we can take care of those nudey pictures for Chester.

Thanks everyone for your advice and encouragement. I'll come back and plug in some details and pics

Sat May 31, 2008 3:34 pm

SUGOI !

Japanese for GREAT/AWESOME !

- Chester

Sat May 31, 2008 5:27 pm

I don't speak or write Japanese, but I agree this is Great and Awesome... good job! Thanks for sharing too... inspiring.

On the shifter... can you adjust at the shifter plate on the front floor? If that's not enough adjustment, follow the Bentley procedure at the break between the front and rear halves of the shift rod. When I had to do that I cut a small shim to Bentley's specs from wood. One other thought... you don't have play in the bushings that the shift rod passes through, do you? A small amount of play can throw the shift surprisingly out of whack.

Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:44 pm

should be able to fix it by adjusting it at the connection point between the two halves, I had to do the same thing after having the tranny out and new bushings.

Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:06 pm

I think my shifter problem was more of a clutch problem.

I mentioned a few days ago that I've been having a bit of an issue with my clutch. It worked great before the install. I installed a new LUK heavy duty clutch and pressure plate. Bled and bled and could not get the clutch to engage in anything other than 3rd and 4th. Then replaced the master and slave cylinders. Better, but still had problem with 1st, reverse and low. Just didn't seem to offer enough throw. For now, I found some nylon bushings to put in the base of the cup of the slave pushrod and the clutch works great!

I went to the machine shop to get a quote on having a custom slave pushrod made and was quoted $80. They said they would do them for $50 each if I could order 10. I'll post a pic on the Samba of the different lengths of the old, new and my idea for an adjustable pushrod.

Now for an extended drive.

There are seven ways to get out of the mountain valley I live in. One of the ways drops in elevation from town and the lowest pass of the remaining three is 9010 ft (the others are 9346, 11,312, 11,318, 12,095, 12,126 are the others. A stock vanagon is a bit of a drag around here.) Going down is no fun, so I decided to go up Poncha pass, which is about a 2000 foot climb in about 7 miles or so. I didn't really know what to expect. My outback with auto goes up it just fine, but I have to push it a bit to maintain 60-65. I definitely doesn't do it in overdrive.

In 3rd, I could maintain 55mph effortlessly. In 4th, it dropped down to 45-50, which is still better than the waterboxer could do in third. I think if I pushed it, it could do 60-65.

I have two questions
Difference in temperature observations. I have a Mastercraft reversed manifold, Tom Shiels thermostat housing and used the Dave Milo coolant routing. I looked at temperatures three ways, the stock Vanagon gauge, a VDO gauge, and a ScanGageII. The ScanGage, which must take temperature from the Subaru temp sensor, gave me readings between 170 and 179 going up that hill. The VW gauge needle was hovering over the warning light, which seems to be a tiny bit higher than the van used to run with the old engine. Now, the VDO gauge read anywhere from about 190-220. Just running around town, it seems to read about 20 degrees over the ScanGage. But going up the hill, it started about 200 and went up to about 220, while the Scangage only registered an increase of a couple degrees. All three gauges read from the coolant manifold, so I'm a bit perplexed. I'm thinking that the Scangage and VW gauge seem pretty consistent. The VDO seems like it may read high. Any advice on this?

I used Brent's method of filling the coolant system. I'm going to bleed it again and see if perhaps there is an air bubble in there somewhere.

My second question is likely a really dumb one. Since the install, my gas gauge is no longer working. Any tips there?

I have a few codes to deal with as well

Thanks!
Steve

Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:39 pm

ranchero wrote: I think my shifter problem was more of a clutch problem.

I mentioned a few days ago that I've been having a bit of an issue with my clutch. It worked great before the install. I installed a new LUK heavy duty clutch and pressure plate. Bled and bled and could not get the clutch to engage in anything other than 3rd and 4th. Then replaced the master and slave cylinders. Better, but still had problem with 1st, reverse and low. Just didn't seem to offer enough throw. For now, I found some nylon bushings to put in the base of the cup of the slave pushrod and the clutch works great!

I went to the machine shop to get a quote on having a custom slave pushrod made and was quoted $80. They said they would do them for $50 each if I could order 10. I'll post a pic on the Samba of the different lengths of the old, new and my idea for an adjustable pushrod.

Now for an extended drive.

There are seven ways to get out of the mountain valley I live in. One of the ways drops in elevation from town and the lowest pass of the remaining three is 9010 ft (the others are 9346, 11,312, 11,318, 12,095, 12,126 are the others. A stock vanagon is a bit of a drag around here.) Going down is no fun, so I decided to go up Poncha pass, which is about a 2000 foot climb in about 7 miles or so. I didn't really know what to expect. My outback with auto goes up it just fine, but I have to push it a bit to maintain 60-65. I definitely doesn't do it in overdrive.

In 3rd, I could maintain 55mph effortlessly. In 4th, it dropped down to 45-50, which is still better than the waterboxer could do in third. I think if I pushed it, it could do 60-65.

I have two questions
Difference in temperature observations. I have a Mastercraft reversed manifold, Tom Shiels thermostat housing and used the Dave Milo coolant routing. I looked at temperatures three ways, the stock Vanagon gauge, a VDO gauge, and a ScanGageII. The ScanGage, which must take temperature from the Subaru temp sensor, gave me readings between 170 and 179 going up that hill. The VW gauge needle was hovering over the warning light, which seems to be a tiny bit higher than the van used to run with the old engine. Now, the VDO gauge read anywhere from about 190-220. Just running around town, it seems to read about 20 degrees over the ScanGage. But going up the hill, it started about 200 and went up to about 220, while the Scangage only registered an increase of a couple degrees. All three gauges read from the coolant manifold, so I'm a bit perplexed. I'm thinking that the Scangage and VW gauge seem pretty consistent. The VDO seems like it may read high. Any advice on this?

I used Brent's method of filling the coolant system. I'm going to bleed it again and see if perhaps there is an air bubble in there somewhere.

My second question is likely a really dumb one. Since the install, my gas gauge is no longer working. Any tips there?

I have a few codes to deal with as well

Thanks!
Steve

Hey Dude,

I am suspecting that the Subaru coolant sensor is perhaps a bit out of whack. The VDO temperature gauge is reading what you should be getting. If you are really seeing coolant temperatures in the 170s then it's running too cool. The stock Subaru thermostat opens at 172 degrees Fahrenheit if I remember correctly. Are you using the stock thermostat ?

The coolant is supposed to be around 190 at idle (185 is what I had in cool 55 degree winter weather) and putting a load on it climbing into the mountains a lot of people report seeing 215 or a bit more which immediately went down once they drove normally. That's not my personal experience though so I wouldn't read too much into that.

I believe the upper factory "normal operation" limit is 210 degrees (at least it is on the EJ22) fahrenheit. The best thing to do would be to take an infrared scan of various parts of the coolant system with an infrared gun. I would definitely go buy or borrow one. That will tell you what's up.

As for your gas guage it's possible that the big white connector behind your instrument cluster on the right side is loose. If you were pulling and yanking on things in that area then that might be the explanation.

In any case, keep us updated,

- Chester

Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:12 pm

ranchero wrote:
I have two questions
Difference in temperature observations. I have a Mastercraft reversed manifold, Tom Shiels thermostat housing and used the Dave Milo coolant routing. I looked at temperatures three ways, the stock Vanagon gauge, a VDO gauge, and a ScanGageII. The ScanGage, which must take temperature from the Subaru temp sensor, gave me readings between 170 and 179 going up that hill. The VW gauge needle was hovering over the warning light, which seems to be a tiny bit higher than the van used to run with the old engine. Now, the VDO gauge read anywhere from about 190-220. Just running around town, it seems to read about 20 degrees over the ScanGage. But going up the hill, it started about 200 and went up to about 220, while the Scangage only registered an increase of a couple degrees. All three gauges read from the coolant manifold, so I'm a bit perplexed. I'm thinking that the Scangage and VW gauge seem pretty consistent. The VDO seems like it may read high. Any advice on this?

I used Brent's method of filling the coolant system. I'm going to bleed it again and see if perhaps there is an air bubble in there somewhere.

My second question is likely a really dumb one. Since the install, my gas gauge is no longer working. Any tips there?

I have a few codes to deal with as well

Thanks!
Steve

I guess that the scan gage is related to OBD?
They run cool bro. VDO is the one you should care the less in a Subaru conversion. Where is it hooked?

Th hotest point is the reverse manifold, center. That is why the Subi sender is there. I have a few reader, mostly OBD, on board and outbord. I never whent higher then 200 or so. In general, all engine are around 175-195F. And that is normal.

Forget 220, no Subi is running near that. Go to basic men.... at 220K (104C, you guys with your old imperial system...) your over the ebullition point... so, do the old trick... put water onto the head.... Water will vaporise. If water doesn't react, you are under that.

VW gage, well, it all depend which resistor Tom used???

28k to 30k sound good. But again, each van need different one. I even went with 36k on some van. On top, in the back of the VW gage itself, in the cluster, you can adjust that gage neutral position. What i'm trying to say is that we can do what we want with that gage!!! The good thing is that it's sitting over or on the light, lower than that it won't react fast enough. So that is good.

IF gun temp are not that good on water cooled van.... but very handy on Air-cool.

To bleed a Subi Vanagon. (i just hope your cooling system is ok?).

Raise RPM to 2000, leveled. Open rad bleeder screw until it flow nicely, close it. Engine to idle AFTER you close the front bleeder.

Rear EX tank. you should be able to open this one even very hot and the level should not rise much.... again, it's the Vanaru style cooling system. The best out there.

Good luck
Ben

Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:19 pm

ftp2leta wrote: ranchero wrote:
I have two questions
Difference in temperature observations. I have a Mastercraft reversed manifold, Tom Shiels thermostat housing and used the Dave Milo coolant routing. I looked at temperatures three ways, the stock Vanagon gauge, a VDO gauge, and a ScanGageII. The ScanGage, which must take temperature from the Subaru temp sensor, gave me readings between 170 and 179 going up that hill. The VW gauge needle was hovering over the warning light, which seems to be a tiny bit higher than the van used to run with the old engine. Now, the VDO gauge read anywhere from about 190-220. Just running around town, it seems to read about 20 degrees over the ScanGage. But going up the hill, it started about 200 and went up to about 220, while the Scangage only registered an increase of a couple degrees. All three gauges read from the coolant manifold, so I'm a bit perplexed. I'm thinking that the Scangage and VW gauge seem pretty consistent. The VDO seems like it may read high. Any advice on this?

I used Brent's method of filling the coolant system. I'm going to bleed it again and see if perhaps there is an air bubble in there somewhere.

My second question is likely a really dumb one. Since the install, my gas gauge is no longer working. Any tips there?

I have a few codes to deal with as well

Thanks!
Steve

I guess that the scan gage is related to OBD?
They run cool bro. VDO is the one you should care the less in a Subaru conversion. Where is it hooked?

Th hotest point is the reverse manifold, center. That is why the Subi sender is there. I have a few reader, mostly OBD, on board and outbord. I never whent higher then 200 or so. In general, all engine are around 175-195F. And that is normal.

Forget 220, no Subi is running near that. Go to basic men.... at 220K (104C, you guys with your old imperial system...) your over the ebullition point... so, do the old trick... put water onto the head.... Water will vaporise. If water doesn't react, you are under that.

VW gage, well, it all depend which resistor Tom used???

28k to 30k sound good. But again, each van need different one. I even went with 36k on some van. On top, in the back of the VW gage itself, in the cluster, you can adjust that gage neutral position. What i'm trying to say is that we can do what we want with that gage!!! The good thing is that it's sitting over or on the light, lower than that it won't react fast enough. So that is good.

IF gun temp are not that good on water cooled van.... but very handy on Air-cool.

To bleed a Subi Vanagon. (i just hope your cooling system is ok?).

Raise RPM to 2000, leveled. Open rad bleeder screw until it flow nicely, close it. Engine to idle AFTER you close the front bleeder.

Rear EX tank. you should be able to open this one even very hot and the level should not rise much.... again, it's the Vanaru style cooling system. The best out there.

Good luck
Ben

Yup, I agree with you since you're the EJ25 expert (I'm the EJ22 novice). I think the infrared gun readings will settle the issue so I'm now holding my breath... well, sort of.

- Chester

Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:09 am

Well, I'm headed off on the first short road trip this weekend. 280 miles R/T from Salida to Pagosa Springs. Start the morning off driving south on 285 with a pass - Poncha at 9010 feet, drop south through the San Luis Valley then west on 160 over Wolf Creek pass (10800) and descend to Pagosa Springs. Hope the only event to report will be UFO's in the San Luis Valley.
Headed to the Pagosa Blues and Folk fest. Vanagul, who has posted here a few times, will be going in his passenger van as well.

This is sort of the first shakedown test for the appox 4800 mile road trip we plan to do in July. Salida, CO-Lost Coast - Arcata-101N-Corvallis-Seattle-Friday Harbor-Vancouver Island-Vancouver-Southern BC-Livingston MT-Wy-CO.

Things seem to be generally well with the van. It is running strong. Still have a knock sensor code and occasionally get a code for the throttle position sensor. Haven't figured out why gas gauge isn't working yet. Power window on passenger side died since I started the swap.

Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:25 am

Very cool... and inspiring... and that stainless exhaust looks sharp. I can't wait to get mine done. With the Scangauge I imagine you can monitor your fuel consumption pretty closely even with the gas gauge. Does the engine knock or just throw the error code?

Best of luck on your shake down trip and congrats on the quick turnaround on the engine installation.

Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:36 am

Those Suby knock sensors can also be triggered by severe tin rattles in the engine compartment or exhaust. Not real common, but I have seen it happen (on a Subaru).

Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:41 pm

ranchero wrote:
This is sort of the first shakedown test for the appox 4800 mile road trip we plan to do in July. Salida, CO-Lost Coast - Arcata-101N-Corvallis-Seattle-Friday Harbor-Vancouver Island-Vancouver-Southern BC-Livingston MT-Wy-CO.

Ranchero Dude,
Let us know when you are heading through Washington and Seattle, I may going up to Friday Harbor about the same time, Although I am no Synchro with an EJ25, maybe I can cruise with you in my lowly 2wd EJ22 powered Westy? I am pastel white though! :lol:

Paul

Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:30 pm

It is quite common that the power windows fail during an engine swap. Have you checked your horn...Just Kidding, nice work, have fun with that new found power !

Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:09 pm

Well, the trip went off without a hitch...almost.
Here we're following Vanagul down the northern end of the San Luis Valley...First pass, no problem.

Then the second pass..Wolf Creek Pass... no problem.

patient passenger waiting for dad to get coffee...

Pulled both passes at or slightly above the speed limit. Got right at 20mpg taking it easy on the way down. Haven't filled up since I got back, but I'll report that.

Ran really well and I'm feeling so good about the money and time spent on the conversion. Had three OBD codes - 328 constantly, 507 and 1507 a few times during the trip. There also seems to be a high load fuel starvation issue. The van feels like it could easily go faster, but under high load - say 3rd gear 60 for several minutes up a pass, it will just cut out like it is going to die. Slightly back off the gas and it is fine. Same thing happened going about 65mph in 4th into a serious headwind in the SLV. Backed off a few mph and it was fine. Really feels like the fuel pump is struggling to keep up. The fuel pump is a Bosch new about this time last year.

Scangage is not reporting MPH or MPG. Wondering if there is an issue with VSS? I checked to see that the LED ond the VSS was working when I had the van up on jackstands.

There were 3 Syncro Westies and about 6-7 7 passenger and westy Vanagons. I suppose that is probably the norm for music festivals. The Bluegrass was excellent!

Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:21 am

Congratulations on a successful maiden voyage. That looks like a beautiful drive... I love the Colorado Rocky Mountain passes. I need a road trip out that way!

What did you ever determine on the water temp inconsistency? Is the VDO gauge just out of whack or did things sync up? I'm also interested in knowing what you find out about the MPG/MPH reading and whether it's a VSS problem. I haven't really decided which way to go for my VSS yet.

So are you a BG picker or just a listener? I've heard the jams at Pagosa are pretty decent. I'm planning on having the Vanagon together for Targhee BG fest in August. Then the question will be whether I have funds left over for the music festival after going through the van's systems! The Founder's Title Folk & BG fest up the road from me at Snowbird, UT, in mid July has a great line up this year... you might consider that as a music destination if you're planning a trip one of these summers.

On the SubaGon front, I did make some good progress while you were enjoying the fruits of your labor. I'm about ready to put my harness back together and I think I've settled on how and where everything is going. I also made the last of the "special tools" I think I'm going to need and can remove the cam sprockets to do the seals, head gaskets, and water pump. My new timing belt idlers arrived the other day, which was going to be an "as needed" item until the SubaruVanagon folks convinced me that $160 now beats a likely head and piston replacement if one fails. Even though I can't dedicate the time to knocking this out like you did, following your and Chester's blow-by-blow success stories is inspiring me!

Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:29 am

ranchero wrote:
Scangage is not reporting MPH or MPG. Wondering if there is an issue with VSS? I checked to see that the LED ond the VSS was working when I had the van up on jackstands.

Sounds like a neat trip.

I could be wrong here, but the reason the Scangauge isn't picking up the MPH and MPG signal is because the VSS that people are using in these Subaru conversions does not put out the correct signal to the ECU. The thinking behind the current VSS that people are using is that they simply want to feed the ECU with a signal similar to what the OEM VSS puts out in order to trick the ECU. In order for the engine to operate correctly, the ECU just wants to know that the vehicle is moving in realtion to the RPM input, O2 sensor readings, airflow, coolant temps, etc. Although the engine will run without a VSS, it easily gets confused under certain circumstances and can cause irratic running issues.

Anyway, the signal from the VSS that you have installed is probably not consistant enough or puts out a wave form that it different from what the Scangauge is able to read. Like I said, I could be wrong though.

Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:57 am

loogy wrote: ranchero wrote:
Scangage is not reporting MPH or MPG. Wondering if there is an issue with VSS? I checked to see that the LED ond the VSS was working when I had the van up on jackstands.

Anyway, the signal from the VSS that you have installed is probably not consistant enough or puts out a wave form that it different from what the Scangauge is able to read. Like I said, I could be wrong though.

I could be wrong, but I think what the ScanGauge should be reading is the ECU's interpretation of what the VSS is telling it, so if the ECU is getting a VSS signal I would expect some MPH reading even if it's wrong. That's part of the reason I haven't decided what to do for a VSS yet; it seems there are strategies to make the engine run but it sounds like the jury is still out as to what signal the ECU is expecting. Maybe I'm wrong about that too but I've read some strong opinions about the best approach to getting the VSS signal in a Vanagon. I would like to not only get my conversion to run right, but if I can take advantage of the computer for some of the ScanGauge Trip calculations and ability to compensate for speedometer inaccuracy it would be great.

I've seen some speculation that the Small Car Perf. VSS works to keep the engine out of limp mode but that something's not quite right... like maybe the pulse width is too short. Someone has proposed a latching Hall arrangement but that doesn't make sense to me. Tom Sheils has designed a vaned arrangement with one magnet and Hall sensor http://www.subaruvanagon.com/tom/Speed%20sensor.htm. With that arrangement you should be able to build a disk that would generate whatever pulse width/duration the ECU expects.

I thought about borrowing an oscilloscope and reading the signal off my Outback's ECU but after perusing the wiring diagrams it looks like the VSS is only used on the manual trans Subarus and mine is an automatic. Maybe the signal at the ECU would be the same... it just looks like the transmission computer somehow handles that function with a modern Subaru auto trans.

Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:00 am

Sound like a great trip. Let me know if you're going to the 4 Corners Folk fest in Pagosa on Labor Day weekend. I know for sure that Moot Point and I will be there. We could pull the wagons into a circle. :D

Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:36 am

Volksaholic wrote: loogy wrote: ranchero wrote:
Scangage is not reporting MPH or MPG. Wondering if there is an issue with VSS? I checked to see that the LED ond the VSS was working when I had the van up on jackstands.

Anyway, the signal from the VSS that you have installed is probably not consistant enough or puts out a wave form that it different from what the Scangauge is able to read. Like I said, I could be wrong though.

I could be wrong, but I think what the ScanGauge should be reading is the ECU's interpretation of what the VSS is telling it, so if the ECU is getting a VSS signal I would expect some MPH reading even if it's wrong.

Yeah, I should have been more clear on that. My mind was going faster than my hands.

What I meant was that if the VSS is putting out a signal that, although it keeps the engine happy, is such that the ECU can't interpret it into a signal that the scangauge can read and thus translate into MPH or MPG. I'm with you in thinking that the Scangauge should pick up something from the ECU but...............