TheSamba.com :: View topic - 68 Bus: no firewall; aftermarket cooler; MeistersatzCV Boots

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:44 pm

I'm a new member to the forums, but I've been lurking for a while. Last year I bought a 1968 Westy, "Pearl", in Half Moon Bay, CA and with a friend, drove it up the coast to BC then across Canada to Nova Scotia. For the past month or so, my father and I have been working on getting it in shape to pass NS MVI on weekends and whenever we have spare time.

During the cross-country voyage, and these past few repairs, I've been learning a lot from experience and from searching the archives on TheSamba, as well as my Bentley and Muir manuals. The more I learn and discover about this particular bus, the more I'm surprised and grateful that we made it as far as we did (about 5000 miles) in a vehicle that really wasn't roadworthy.

Anyway, I didn't mean to tell a story; I want to ask some questions and seek some guidance.

No Firewall
Being that she's a 1968, I don't have a firewall. After reading the fire sticky, I've decided to completely replace all fuel lines. I am however very concerned about the lack of a firewall. Is there an after market firewall available, or could I use one from a later bus? It's kind of scary.

After Market Oil Cooler
The PO had an oil cooler installed. On the advice of some old school VW mechanics, I've decided to remove it. The problem is, I don't know how to get it back to stock.

This is the oil filter for the cooler from inside the engine bay:

This is the oil cooler, mounted on the outside:

Meistersatz CV Boots
I searched the forums and there seems to be mixed reviews about the brand. They came with the bus, along with some gaskets and a lot of other spare parts. I'm inclined to use them because they're there, but I don't want to have to replace them in a few months. Should I even bother, or should I order a more reliable brand?

The Engine
Just for good measure, I'm including a picture of my engine. Some things are disconnected and taped off because we're prepping to drop the engine/trans. Please point out any flaws you might notice.

What is that cut hose on the top right?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:09 pm

First...Welcome to Samba!!! \:D/ Second....Get that fuel filter out of that engine compartment and, yes, change those lines ASAP!!!! There just a fire waiting to happen. Not sure about the lack of a fire wall.....but the heat going into the fuel compartment can be good!! :shock:

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:51 pm

Meistersatz CV Boots are workin fine for over 2 years now in my bus!

Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:30 pm

that hose coming out of the dog house is C.A. emissions control junk.
68 to 70 Bus stuff all pretty much fit each other.
i would keep the filter, but stash the cooler some where out of sight...imo

Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:55 pm

Here are a few things off the top of my head:

-Fuel filter has to go
-Coil looks terrible (might work fine, I don't know)
-Can't see your engine seal, might be there just removed for dropping the motor. If not, get one in there
-Your heat riser tubes are cut away from the intake. Might want to replace depending on your climate
-Ditch the paper filter and get an oilbath
-I don't see a vacuum can on that distributor, might want to read about that and decide if you want to switch back to a vac dizzy
-I would keep the full flow, at least the filter. Ditch the cooler or at least move it out of sight

Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:58 pm

caffiend wrote:

This is the oil filter for the cooler from inside the engine bay:

Looking at this, it seems you can just cut the line running out to the cooler. Then remove the line from the cooler to the filter and hook up the newly cut line from the motor. That way you will retain the filter but are able to remove the cooler.

Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:06 pm

calebmelvin wrote: Here are a few things off the top of my head:
-Can't see your engine seal, might be there just removed for dropping the motor. If not, get one in there

The seal is on the apron, obviously removed :idea:

Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:42 pm

vwbusbusvw wrote: calebmelvin wrote: Here are a few things off the top of my head:
-Can't see your engine seal, might be there just removed for dropping the motor. If not, get one in there

The seal is on the apron, obviously removed :idea:
I don't get your logic. Just because the apron is removed it automatically has a seal?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:07 pm

First of all get rid of all of the fuzzy stuff (insulation?) around the tank, no oil cooler will save your engine when you suck some of that into the fan and clog the cooling system, use a shop vac or whatever but get it all out.

I'd imagine a mid 68-71 tank panel would fit the hole over the tank but there's no retainer channel at the top and no filler panels at the sides over the wheelwells, if your handy with a pop riveter and sheet metal you could pull it off.

Lose the oil cooler, keep the filter but go to the local hydraulic supply house and have some proper hoses made, they're cheap and the crimped on fittings with pipe threads don't fail.

Engine flaws, well.... air cleaner, get the proper oil bath, nothing works better. Move the fuel filter out of the engine compartment and put it near the tank outlet. Lose the 009. Get an intake manifold with the heat riser tubes, if it never gets below 70 deg. where you live leave it alone. I can't see where the wires to the generator and carb are routed from the right side but they aren't secured to the clips on the shroud, if it's hanging down between the shroud and carb you will short it on the throttle cable, arc cuts cable, you walk. The hose sticking out of the RH top of the shroud is for the 70+ charcoal canister, cap it off, your 68 doesn't have that system. A good cleaning and tweaking of the tin never hurts, every gap is a leak that isn't helping your engine cool. If your dropping the engine anyways pull the shroud and tins and recover the rest of that fuzzy stuff around the tank.

As for the seal, I can't see it because no photos quite show where it belongs, other than the missing apron which I hope you have.

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:24 pm

Has anybody heard of a situation of a fire starting because of the lack of the "firewall" panel? I haven't, but it is plausible. There are a lot of splits and early bays running around without them! It may well be that lack of that panel making it easier to inspect the filler and vent hoses might prevent fires!

With this bus, the first order of business is getting the cooling system into order. With no apron and seal it will overheat.

Replace all fuel lines of course, and make sure the front tin grommet is in excellent condition.

The CV boots might work, but seeing as how CV work is 95% greasy labor I wouldn't want to risk putting boots of indeterminate age and quality in there and having to repeat the job 6 months down the road. Do yourself a favor and get a new set of Rockford boots if the boots need switching.

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:32 pm

vwbusbusvw wrote: calebmelvin wrote: Here are a few things off the top of my head:
-Can't see your engine seal, might be there just removed for dropping the motor. If not, get one in there

The seal is on the apron, obviously removed :idea:

It does actually have a seal on the apron, which is removed.

Thanks everyone, for your input! You're all awesome.

calebmelvin wrote: -Fuel filter has to go

I'm heading out on a hiking/camping trip for the weekend (in my car, not in the bus). When I return I'll read up on how others placed their fuel filters outside of the engine bay and do the same.

calebmelvin wrote: -Coil looks terrible (might work fine, I don't know)

It does work well, I think it's just some stupid paint job.

calebmelvin wrote: -Your heat riser tubes are cut away from the intake. Might want to replace depending on your climate

Is this the hose that's cut in the top right of the engine pic?

calebmelvin wrote: -Ditch the paper filter and get an oilbath

I have a friend who's an older VW mechanic (I call him my German). He's retired now, but in his day was the local VW guru around Guelph, Ontario. Anyway, he's hunting down an oil bath filter for me.

calebmelvin wrote: -I don't see a vacuum can on that distributor, might want to read about that and decide if you want to switch back to a vac dizzy

I don't know anything about the vacuum or it's purpose. Definitely something I'll need to read up on. I did notice it's absence, when I saw others' engine pics on here.

calebmelvin wrote: -I would keep the full flow, at least the filter. Ditch the cooler or at least move it out of sight

I'll probably ditch the cooler and keep the filter, as you and others have suggested. My German told me that because the cooler is covered, it's probably not doing anything for cooling as it is anyway.

When I do drop the engine, should I just disconnect at the filter and bring the hoses out with it?

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:48 pm

busdaddy wrote: First of all get rid of all of the fuzzy stuff (insulation?) around the tank, no oil cooler will save your engine when you suck some of that into the fan and clog the cooling system, use a shop vac or whatever but get it all out.
Will do.

busdaddy wrote: I'd imagine a mid 68-71 tank panel would fit the hole over the tank but there's no retainer channel at the top and no filler panels at the sides over the wheelwells, if your handy with a pop riveter and sheet metal you could pull it off.
I'll ask my dad about this, he used to do body work back in the day.

busdaddy wrote: Lose the 009.
Sorry, I don't know what a 009 is.

busdaddy wrote: Get an intake manifold with the heat riser tubes, if it never gets below 70 deg. where you live leave it alone.
Well, it gets really cold here in the winter, but I keep her parked in the garage. They use salt on the roads around here in the winter, so I hide her from that.

busdaddy wrote: I can't see where the wires to the generator and carb are routed from the right side but they aren't secured to the clips on the shroud, if it's hanging down between the shroud and carb you will short it on the throttle cable, arc cuts cable, you walk.
I'll take a look at this.

busdaddy wrote: The hose sticking out of the RH top of the shroud is for the 70+ charcoal canister, cap it off, your 68 doesn't have that system. A good cleaning and tweaking of the tin never hurts, every gap is a leak that isn't helping your engine cool. If your dropping the engine anyways pull the shroud and tins and recover the rest of that fuzzy stuff around the tank.
Yeah, I was planning to clean everything up and replace the bushings in the shift rod while the engine is out. I'll make sure to get that insulation out of there.

Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:57 pm

The hose on the top right is useless in your situation, plug it.

If you look below the carb you will find the intake manifold, it runs down to a "T" and then goes left and right to each head. At the "T" there are two sets of tubes, one really big and one really small going on each side. The big one carries the air/fuel into the motor. The small ones are heat riser tubes, and yours are cut off. If you look at other pictures of VW engines that have these you will see what I mean. They are supposed to go down to the tin and get warm air from the exhaust underneath, heating your intake manifold, thus helping it to run better in cold weather.

Oh, and the 009 is the name for the distributor your have without the vacuum advance. When he said ditch the 009, he meant get rid of yours and get one with and vacuum advance.

Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:34 pm

Quote: They are supposed to go down to the tin and get warm air from the exhaust underneath, heating your intake manifold, thus helping it to run better in cold weather

I would hook up the heat risers no matter what the climate. The pressure drop (vaccum) in the manifold can drop the temp in the manifold enough to hinder fuel atomization in relatively warm ambient temps.

I've seen water droplets form and run down a carb from condesation on a warm day. On a cool day it would have been frost.

Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:51 am

My turn-

Busdaddy you must have real good eyes. I don't see insulation around the tank. Maybe it's because my eyes arn't the best. But for sure if there is some in that area it has to go. Anything loose or floppy could cause havoc.
The big issue is the cooler. But the bigger issue is the assumed full flow system. Unless we get better clarification, I'm thinking the the stock cooler is not there and instead has the adapter on the case to connect the oil lines to. If that's the situation then the outside cooler everyone wants to remove is the only cooler his engine has. So Caffiend, the hoses shown in your filter picture, do they head forward near the forward side of the fan shroud or do they go rearward and down under the apron to the rear of the engine below the distributor and under the crank pulley? The pic shows they don't unless they have allready been disconnected. Full flow hoses are on the underside, not up on top. So the real questions are whether it actually has a dog house cooler and is a full flow system.
Presumably your engine is a '71 or facsimile of one. Since you have dual port heads and (maybe) a dog house shroud. The intake manifold should have functional heat risers. However you don't have a VW muffler for the heat risers to attach to. Your aftermarket header may or may not have the heat riser flange connections. If not, the correct intake manifold wouldn't connect anyway.
What's all that wierd mounting whatever below the coil. Is it replacement stuff for broken stock coil mounting bosses in the fan shroud? Regardless, I hate to see a fuel line running that close to a coil and it;s connections.
You might have an 009 dizzy but the cap looks too tall and real strange looking. Not sure what you have there. However if your distributor is a 009 don't be concerned about it unless you can't get your engine running real nice. I use 009's and am real happy with them. Don't replace it just because everyone say's too. If your engine runs nice spend your money where it would do more good. Like most busses you probably have under rated tires that are not suitable for a bus.

It would be good if you could give us photo's of in front of your fan shroud. Particularly if the oil hoses actually do run up there.

Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:42 am

removing the fuel filter isnt necessary IMO. here in NY, i have gone 30 years without any incident. nor have i heard of any incidents around here with engine fires resulting from fuel filters leaking or melting. standard samba advice to remove it, but have not heard that anyone toasted their ride this way anywhere. if you decide to keep it there, then dont let it touch anything else.

to restore the engine to doghouse cooler function, you will have to lift the shroud, remove the adaptor, and install a stock cooler. this requires dropping the engine out. you might even find that you dont have the 71 doghouse shroud. 68-70 did not come from the factory with the doghouse.

the large hose on the shroud should go to the charcoal canister. this is part of the vapor recovery system for the gas tank. as the fuel expands, it has to go somehere, so those vapors and pressurized air from the shroud both enter the same end of the charcoal canister, pass thru it, and leave the other end thru another large hose where the air/gas flow is picked up by the air cleaner. others here tell you to cap off the shroud only because you dont have the stock factory air cleaner. the factory aircleaner filters that air/gas mix. but with that aftermarket air cleaner, you havent got a provision for that ,as the outside of that filter is not enclosed.

Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:51 am

Dan, it's a 68, no vapor system, only a vent hose under the filler flap.

Desertbusman, look in the background of the oil filter pic.

Excellent point on the potentially removed cooler, shroud pull for sure.

Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:19 pm

dansvans wrote: removing the fuel filter isnt necessary IMO. here in NY, i have gone 30 years without any incident. nor have i heard of any incidents around here with engine fires resulting from fuel filters leaking or melting. standard samba advice to remove it, but have not heard that anyone toasted their ride this way anywhere. if you decide to keep it there, then dont let it touch anything else.

Sound advice. I've never had any problems with the in-line filters either. I wouldn't let it vibrate against another object, but they seem to be plenty tough.

With this one, it would be worthwhile to do an engine/transmission pull to make sure that everything is as it should be. You have to pull the engine to check the oil cooler inside the shroud anyway.

When I got my '71 I ran it for a few months before dropping the engine to clean things up. The first thing I found was that some backyard engineer had decided to run the fuel line (all rubber hose) between the front engine seal and the tin. It had a nice flat spot on it where the fabric cover was completely rubbed away and rubber exposed. Another 10,000 miles would have resulted in a fire. The cooling flaps were missing, the fan shroud was not properly seated on the cylinder tins, etc. etc. I also had the opportunity to braze the cracks in the cylinder tin.

Dropping the drivetrain is kind of a "getting to know you" ritual to help you and your new bus bond... :)

Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:24 pm

I have to agree that fuel filter failures are rare but you are missing the point. Most fires start when a fuel line comes off its respective connection and fuel is expelled. By having the filter in this location, it gives 4 connections that could potentially come lose post fuel pump. If any of these do come loose, the pump will continue to run spraying fuel everywhere.

By removing the filter from the engine compartment you are reducing the connections to 2 post fuel pump. These remaining connections (fuel pump and carb) can be wired so there is really no way they can come loose.

If he is already going to replace these lines, why go to all the trouble of putting the filter back there?

Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:40 pm

calebmelvin wrote: I have to agree that fuel filter failures are rare but you are missing the point. Most fires start when a fuel line comes off its respective connection and fuel is expelled. By having the filter in this location, it gives 4 connections that could potentially come lose post fuel pump. If any of these do come loose, the pump will continue to run spraying fuel everywhere.

By removing the filter from the engine compartment you are reducing the connections to 2 post fuel pump. These remaining connections (fuel pump and carb) can be wired so there is really no way they can come loose.

If he is already going to replace these lines, why go to all the trouble of putting the filter back there?

Actually, most fires start because of failure of the fuel line grommet or the rubber hose immediately forward of the grommet. That's because a fuel leak here drips on the #3 exhaust pipe, one of the few things hot enough to ignite the fuel.

I've never had lines come off a filter. If properly clamped, this is a non-issue. For the paranoid, the hose clamps can be wired together to keep the lines positively on the filter.

What does occur fairly often is nipples pulling out of the carb and fuel pump castings or leaks developing around these nipples even if they are in place. These should be checked carefully, and if not secure, they should be repaired by careful cleaning and reseating with JB-Weld.

The filter does provide a function, that of preventing fuel tank grunge (and few 40-year-old vehicles lack grunge) from getting into the carburetor. This prevents many problems of poor engine drivability.

Like "disarming the automatic choke" the "shattering fuel filter" is a bit of common knowledge that seems to be more based on conjecture than fact.