TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:35 pm

For those who want to maintain all 5 tires exactly the same, this is a way to get best usage of the spare. It essential that Syncro owners rotate the spare in every 3,000 miles (if not decoupled). Otherwise running a 'new' spare with 3 older tires can cook your Viscous Coupling.

For 2wd maybe every 5,000 miles (?).

Here is an image from http://www.vanagon.com/syncros/technica/tire-rotation/index.html with instructions added (so I could print it and put it in my Bentley manual on p44.1a)

This method takes only one OEM jack, and requires no jackstands or other fussing etc. It took me 15 minutes to rotate 5 wheels in the driveway. No rocket science here, just a simple process to make it happen exactly the same every 3,000 miles.

Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:03 pm

Hi Sodo

This is only one possible scenario.
Its as difficult as to talk about faith.
In you Bentley is a tire rotation plan, but it only rotates font to back and not left to right.
Then I worked for a tire dealer they said not to change the direction of your tire's rotation, so don’t change a left to the right, just like the Bentley.
But I hear others telling me the opposite, in general I like to believe the professionals.

Michael

Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:22 pm

suebicum wrote: This is only one possible scenario
So true. Lots of ways to do it, I just wanted to pick one an print it for my Bentley so I can do the same thing next 3000 miles.

suebicum wrote: Its as difficult as to talk about faith.
.....or favorite oil brands! Yes I've seen some strange beginnings for forum-fisticuffs. Hope I'm not causing one!

suebicum wrote:
In your Bentley is a tire rotation plan, but it only rotates font to back and not left to right. Then I worked for a tire dealer they said not to change the direction of your tire's rotation, so don’t change a left to the right, just like the Bentley.
But I hear others telling me the opposite, in general I like to believe the professionals.

I think it is worthwhile to listen to the professionals. But maybe there are other circumstances, like high-horsepower etc, 2wd, heavy-load, or under-inflation issues that make the 'maintain direction' advice a necessary position for a Dealer to state. Remember that a tire dealer may HAVE to choose the answer that shields them from lawsuits.

My desire is to use up all 5 tires equally. This gives 25% more miles from a set than NOT working the spare in. The other detail being that having AWD (Syncro) I don't think I have any choice.....

ALL 5 wheel rotations will result in changing the direction. I would have to go to 6 wheels to maintain rotation direction and I am not convinced that maintaining direction is necessary (yet).

Thanks for the input. Maybe somebody KNOWS the reason or the circumstances where maintaining rotation is important.

Tom

Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:45 pm

Quote: Maybe somebody KNOWS the reason or the circumstances where maintaining rotation is important.

As far as I remember it was exactly because of the tire wear, it was said that changing the rotation wears the tire faster.
As soon as my Syncro is on the road I will rotate the Spare in on one side and my exta Spare on the other :D (got 2 spares :wink: )

Michael

Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:55 pm

Sodo wrote: This gives 25% more miles from a set than NOT working the spare in.

ahhhhh, perhaps 'up to 25%' is better.

So does anyone know if 5 wheels in rotation will ACTUALLY last longer than a 4 wheel rotation (maintaining wheel direction)?

The cost is 12+ tire rotations. Which, at 15 minutes each (for me) costs a minimum of 3 hours for 12 rotations. For a $120 tire this 12x job pays ~$40 an hour CASH. I think the question then becomes whether tire rotation pays off at all.

But back to my situation, I have AWD (and won't be carrying 2 spares) so I don't have any choice I have to do 5 (or 6) wheel rotation, and I don't have 6.

Tom

Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:36 pm

if the tread is symmetrical, you can, and should, cross rotate imho

if the tread design is directional, then you need 6 tire rotation with no cross.

bottom line
which tire are you using?

you can use a 4 tire rotation and keep the spare unrotated, so long as you have a decoupler when and if it comes time to use a mismatched size/worn tire

I have a Syncro too, I use the 5 tire rotation you posted, with BFG AT KO tires.. symmetrical tread pattern

Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:40 pm

I have BFG A/T KO 215R75 X 15, no decoupler.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:21 pm

Hi

Quote: if the tread is symmetrical, you can, and should, cross rotate imho

That’s what I meant, with the believe system.
Who says you should cross and who says you can’t rotate the spare in just on one side.
Even on a Syncro its not that critical, but, yes driving on the Highway with a new spare and worn rest will fry your visco on the long run.

By the way my owners manual (1986 Vanagon/Transpoter) states on page 77:
Tires must always remain on same side of vehicle
Why? I do not know, because you can cross them, If your tires get a saw tooth in the thread its even a good method to correct that.

So cook your Meatloaf to your own recipe but don’t tell people it’s the only way of doing it.

Michael

Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:47 pm

suebicum wrote: Hi

Quote: if the tread is symmetrical, you can, and should, cross rotate imho

That’s what I meant, with the believe system.
Who says you should cross and who says you can’t rotate the spare in just on one side.
Even on a Syncro its not that critical, but, yes driving on the Highway with a new spare and worn rest will fry your visco on the long run.

By the way my owners manual (1986 Vanagon/Transpoter) states on page 77:
Tires must always remain on same side of vehicle
Why? I do not know, because you can cross them, If your tires get a saw tooth in the thread its even a good method to correct that.

So cook your Meatloaf to your own recipe but don’t tell people it’s the only way of doing it.

Michael

That info is outdated, unless the tires are directional. That's a 22 year old manual.

Used to be the tire industry looked upon tire position like right and left shoes. It's just not so. Crossing the tires side to side with rotation is now viewed as a good thing.

Stick around long enough, they will probably change their collective mind again.

Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:47 am

> who says you can’t rotate the spare in just on one side

people who, unlike you, dont have TWO spares

do read the link in the first post, it includes useful info about 4, 5, and 6 tire rotations, each of which have their own merit

imo, if you only have ONE spare, and you have a Syncro, the 5 wheel rotation posted is a very good option.

the only reason NOT to cross a tire is IF it has DIRECTIONAL tread, in which case you MUST have 2 spares.

just my opinion
Jonathan

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:21 am

Jon_slider wrote: > who says you can’t rotate the spare in just on one side

Then the 'benefit' becomes "up to 12.5% more" usage (comparing a 4-tire set to a 4 1/2 tire set). This has to be done 12 times in 48,000 miles. :shock: :shock:

I wonder if managing the usage of one whole spare is worth it (for a 2wd) - I can't imagine managing half-a-spare. When I had a 2wd I just carried a junky tire that held air. And I could not possibly manage two spares unless they were both carried on the van!

My whole reason for this post in the beginning was to put a simple printable image near the top at first post - so it's easy to be anal. And just to talk vanagons, of course......

Tom

PS: Wonder if all this fussing really results in a net benefit. Could you just drive the damned thing and channel all this effort into ensuring that the Vanagon is enroute to a campground every friday by 4:30 PM......)?

Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:13 pm

Quote: > who says you can’t rotate the spare in just on one side

people who, unlike you, dont have TWO spares

so you can't rotate your ONE spare in just on one side?
that’s what Pirelli suggests :!: http://www.us.pirelli.com/web/technology/about-tyres/tyres-advice/tyre-rotation-patt/default.page

OK Bridgestone says you should cross :?: http://www.tiresafety.com/maintenance.asp

Well :shock: :) :lol: :D

That’s why I said its like talking about faith.
And I think its a US / Europe thing too. In Europe you hear more about font/back and in the US about cross rotation.

Tom don’t worry too much, you got better things to do with your Van.
4:30 on Fridays, heck why not 6:00 on Thursdays, OK I got 4 Day week.
Just pick a rotation that you like and stick with it.
Happy Camping

Michael

Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:25 am

Jon_slider wrote:
> who says you can’t rotate the spare in just on one side

I did not write that, and I dont agree with it unless you have 2 spares, and then only if they are directional.

For a single spare, I recommend cross rotating per your first post.

> Then the 'benefit' becomes "up to 12.5% more" usage

no, the real benefit is that you have a matched spare for a Syncro not to cook the VC, or stress the transaxle. Running mismatched tires on a Syncro with no decoupler is very bad, as in VERY expensive to repair power train failures.

as far as mileage benefit, well, 5 tires is 25% more rubber than 4 tires, so it will take 25% more total miles, to wear out 5 tires equally than to wear out four..

> so you can't rotate your ONE spare in just on one side?

if you get a flat on the other side, you will have to cross the spare

passenger side front tires wear more than all the others, due to road crown, hence even with a 2 spare system, if you dont cross, you will end up with a smaller right side tire set than the driver side set.

again, the ONLY reason NOT to cross is if you have DIRECTIONAL tires.. such as Nokkian. In which case you NEED 2 spares.

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:09 pm

Hello

Well we can discuss that until next year, but the fact is there are two different method’s.
Both have pros and cons and no we are NOT talking about directional tires.
And don’t pee in your pants because of the VC, I have seen people do unbelievable Tire mismatches and they got over 100,000 miles on it.

Let common sense rule and you will do just fine in Live. :D

Michael

Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:59 am

> we can discuss that until next year, but the fact is there are two different method’s

three different methods actually

method 1, with only one spare, cross rotate as first posted

method 2 with 2 spares, no cross rotation required

method 3, with one spare, and only rotate it into one side as suebicum suggests..

Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:06 am

Sorry Jon, its not me who suggests anything.
I might have some education in technology, but would not make any suggestions on my own.
It’s a Tire manufacturer who suggests that
http://www.us.pirelli.com/web/technology/about-tyres/tyres-advice/tyre-rotation-patt/default.page

And like I said this is only one Method, other manufacturers choose to use a other and some choose to say you should use the method suggested by your cars owners manual.

All I wanted to do here was to show, often there is more than one solution to a problem.
There’s not one tire for a vanagon neither is there one Oil or other equipment.
But a lot of people talk in absolutes about the tire, oil…….
It often depends on your preferences or location, and as long as it is with in specs your usually fine.

Michael

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:06 pm

Hi guys - I just came across this thread when wondering about tire rotation for my new syncro.

I took the diagram Sodo made, and tweaked it a bit. Now you can print your own, get it laminated, and stick it in your wallet! or glovebox....

;)

Thanks for the info - hope this diagram helps.

I can send a PDF of this, but not sure how to post those.

Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:29 am

Nice!

The OCD part of me must point out that steps 1 and 4 have a space after the parenthesis, while the other steps do not. :roll:

The keep-it-simple part of me just rotates the tires one position clockwise. :D

Enjoy your vans! :van_ltblue:

Jim

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:01 am

Great Catch - SyncroHead

I've corrected it, but don't know how to replace an image? Anyone know? I could post another image, but that seems excessive...

Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:16 am

kguarnotta wrote: Great Catch - SyncroHead

I've corrected it, but don't know how to replace an image? Anyone know? I could post another image, but that seems excessive...
Just delete that image and replace it with the new, improved version.