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meyervw Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:47 pm

So I went today and checked why Gustav is running hot. This is what I got. The hose after the T-Stat is cold. The engine is very warm and then hot. The hose after the t-stat still cold. Ok the t-stat is stuck closed. I put in a new one and check the old one. The old one and new both open at 87 deg C. So I am now thinking the only thing this could be is the water pump not circulating the cooland. This is why it is soo cold at the front and so hot at the back. Does this sound about right for this this problem? I cannot think of anything else this could be. Also its so cold at the front the cooling fans do not come on. So I jumped the switch and had the fan run all the time. Still it will try to over heat.

Dogpilot Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:56 pm

Well anything is possible. If you loosen the belt to the water pump and see if you can turn it by hand. They do seize or get very stiff and the belt will not turn it very fast or at all.

All of the WBX Water pumps I have seen, and I will state the number to be under five. They all had metal impellers swaged to the metal shaft. This type usually do not come apart, but then again. Anything is possible. So it may be possible the impeller has come loose. The pumps usually seize up.

The water pump is not an expensive part, but get the more expensive one, as the seals are higher quality. Also get all the little water hoses that connect around it. They will all fail if you try to move them. It is not a fun part to replace, but it also is not the worst thing on the WBX

meyervw Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:35 pm

What esle could it be? Is there an easy way to see if the pump is putting out. I will remove the belt tomarrow. The pully and belt are not binding and I hear no unusual noises. I will check in the morning and get back to you.
Side not the privious own did not take good care of this and maybe a cheap aftermarket water pump. Will look for a VW number on it too.

tencentlife Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:33 am

Put the year of your van in your posts.

meyervw Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:50 am

Whoops. It an 87 with 2.1.

Dogpilot Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:02 am

Since it is Sunday and we all need to relax with a good cup of coffee and read something. Here is the cooling system of the 2.1L explained:










tencentlife Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:21 am

meyervw wrote: What esle could it be?

Blocked-up radiator. A slipping pump impeller isn't impossible, but the radiator clogging up is much more likely.

Try the easy test: when the engine is hot, open both heater valves and turn on their fans. Even just the front one will do the trick, actually. If the temp level drops, you're in the market for a new radiator.

Warm output from the heater also proves that there is flow thru the system, which means the water pump is working OK.

moosie982 Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:46 am

Could it be air bound, did you bleed it ? Peace,,,Moosie :bus_blue:

meyervw Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:10 am

OK I went out and removed the belt. The pump is nice and slight resistance. I will assume this is the impeller is good. I opened the bleed at the radiator and filled with water. I started the van and get a small flow back out. I believe the water pump is good now. The big thing that is bugging me is why the T-stat will not open. It is hot on the engine side and cold and can be on the radiator side. I finally shut it down as the temp was getting up there. I notice an arrow on the T-stat. However there is no direction of where that arrow points to. I do believe all the air is out so I will go warm it up and see if the fan cools it of.

moosie982 Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:18 am

According to the illustrations that dogpilot posted there is a bleed screw at the thermostat housing, is it like that on yours ? if it is , thats where I'd bleed it. Cooling systems are finicky about crap like that. Peace,,,Moosie :bus_blue:

meyervw Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:26 am

No change with the fan on. I only have the fan up front and it made no difference with it in position 4 and the heat on.

meyervw Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:27 am

moosie982 wrote: According to the illustrations that dogpilot posted there is a bleed screw at the thermostat housing, is it like that on yours ? if it is , thats where I'd bleed it. Cooling systems are finicky about crap like that. Peace,,,Moosie :bus_blue:
I'll try it again. Just cause.

meyervw Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:57 am

tencentlife wrote: meyervw wrote: What esle could it be?

Blocked-up radiator. A slipping pump impeller isn't impossible, but the radiator clogging up is much more likely.

Try the easy test: when the engine is hot, open both heater valves and turn on their fans. Even just the front one will do the trick, actually. If the temp level drops, you're in the market for a new radiator.

Warm output from the heater also proves that there is flow thru the system, which means the water pump is working OK.
I do have really good heat inside. So I am now eliminating the pump.
This now really only leaves the T-stat.

moosie982 Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:28 pm

meyervw wrote: I notice an arrow on the T-stat. However there is no direction of where that arrow points to.
The direction of the flow, so if the engine is hot and the rad is cold it should point towards the radiator,,,,I think. Some one else can verify this or post the correct direction. I hope you get it straightened out. Peace,,,Moosie :bus_blue:

tencentlife Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:44 pm

The radial orientation of the t-stat makes a difference in some cars, but it's not important in this one so long as you have it in there right-side up (I don't think you could get the cover on with it upside-down). None of the German t-stats I buy even has an arrow.

Delivery of heat proves the pump moves fluid; there is circulation in that loop at all times, unaffected by t-stat being open or closed. If you run the heater blower full speed, you should see the temp gauge drop pretty quick, within several seconds there should be visible movement.

You said you proved that yout t-stat opens in hot water. If so, then it will open in the housing. There is always circulation of hot fluid across the expansion element right from the cylinder heads whenever the engine is running and regardless of it or the heater valves being open or closed.

Unless you find blockage in the hoses and piping front-to-rear, I'd say you got a blocked-up radiator. Mine's starting to go, too, and the change in cooling performance can actually be pretty sudden.

meyervw Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:27 pm

How about this one. I filled the radiator again. Took about 2 liters. NOw here is the question. It instantly fills the second res. I have full flow through the cap. This should not be, correct? The cap should only release and a certain temp. If this is the caes then I am not getting pressure in the system and this could be why its hot. Let me know about the cap. I ttok it off and can blow air through it both ways very easy.

tencentlife Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:53 pm

Oh, yeah, that's no good. Return pressure, meaning blowing into the nipple, you might be able to blow air in because the setting is only about 1 psi. You would feel some resistance, though. But trying to suck air out the nipple, there's no way you could get the valve to open; the setting is 15psi. You can't get anywhere near that with your lungs, mouth, standing on your head, whatever.

Are you sure there's even a valve disc in there? The disc that both valves are part of is removable from the body of the cap once you take out the rubber sealing ring.

Some say that the system would work even with no cap on there, or no working containment valve like you seem to have. I'm not so sure it would, when I think about it. Regardless, containing pressure raises the boil point of the fluid considerably, so that it can work in the temp range the engine will actually operate at, so you do need a working cap on there. Increased pressure provides more working temp boost than the antifreeze does.

Are you finding that even after you've filled the radiator, more air finds its way there after running it awhile? Your last post seems to suggest that that is happening.

meyervw Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:35 pm

Right. I would fill the system with a giant syringe via the bleed screw at the radiator. What I am finding is it is going into the second res since the cap is no good. So not only do I have air in the system but the cap in not letting the system pressure up to keep the temp down. I am sure you know about the pressurekeeping the bioiling point down. Since I cannot build pressure the water pump is not as effective. This makes sense.
I tested the cap and I can easily blow both ways of the nipple fitting. Its done.

vanagon john Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:22 pm

tencentlife wrote: meyervw wrote: What esle could it be?

Blocked-up radiator. A slipping pump impeller isn't impossible, but the radiator clogging up is much more likely.

Try the easy test: when the engine is hot, open both heater valves and turn on their fans. Even just the front one will do the trick, actually. If the temp level drops, you're in the market for a new radiator.

Warm output from the heater also proves that there is flow thru the system, which means the water pump is working OK.

not trying to take over but I noticed that over the last couple of weeks my temp gauge has been on the rise. Being that it was summer I did not want any more hot air blowing around...
Now that cooler temps have set in I still noticed that the temp gauge was reading high no matter what it was like outside. So tonight when i went on a ride I turned the heat on and noticed that the needle went back to just over the level sensor light. I then turned the heat off and the needle went back to the right of the gauge. Is this what your talking about when you say that I might be on the lookout for a new radiator?

peace
John

meyervw Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:48 pm

vanagon john wrote: tencentlife wrote: meyervw wrote: What esle could it be?

Blocked-up radiator. A slipping pump impeller isn't impossible, but the radiator clogging up is much more likely.

Try the easy test: when the engine is hot, open both heater valves and turn on their fans. Even just the front one will do the trick, actually. If the temp level drops, you're in the market for a new radiator.

Warm output from the heater also proves that there is flow thru the system, which means the water pump is working OK.

not trying to take over but I noticed that over the last couple of weeks my temp gauge has been on the rise. Being that it was summer I did not want any more hot air blowing around...
Now that cooler temps have set in I still noticed that the temp gauge was reading high no matter what it was like outside. So tonight when i went on a ride I turned the heat on and noticed that the needle went back to just over the level sensor light. I then turned the heat off and the needle went back to the right of the gauge. Is this what your talking about when you say that I might be on the lookout for a new radiator?

peace
John
Thats the radiator issue that he was talking about. If you can cool it down via the heater then the radiator is on its way out.



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