TheSamba.com :: View topic - Big Blue's Back and slower than ever!! Called the Shop...

Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:25 pm

aeromech wrote: BigBlueVW.blogspot.com wrote: So I can put the old distributor back in and set the timing to see if it's the 009, correct? I don't have to do anything to the carb to go back to the old distributor?

Why don't you just put a timing light on the 009 and rev the engine while watching the advance. You should be around 28 degrees total advance which should be around 2500 rpm or so. At idle you should see around 10 degrees of timing with the .009.

Will do. Thanks.

Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:19 am

So what's the latest on your engine?

Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:12 am

Yeah Brett, I'm watching this one closely too. What did the shop do for you?

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:33 pm

The only update I have is that the timing is right on. I checked it with the strobe light and it's correct. Advance works fine.

I have yet to check the compression. I tried, but the compression tester I have won't read. Stopped by the auto parts store here to get a new one and they were out of the one I wanted. I'll try to get to it in the next few days.

My work was slowed by a move to a new place and then I focused on the interior earlier in the week.

I've driven it about 150 miles since the work. The only thing I have adjusted is the mixture at the carb. Still seems to be running rich by the smell, but sounds right.

Oh, and the new exhaust coming right out in back of the engine sucks for working on the car while it's running. I had my new Samba Bay Window shirt on while testing the timing and I had to take it off when I came in as it smelled like I had mowed the lawn in it.

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:40 pm

So the shop would not do anything for you?

It appears to me that is a very dirty looking Bocar carb... why for all that coin they charged you would they not clean up/rebuild the carb?

If you have no intentions of taking it back to the shop in question I understand that....

I would take the top off the carb an look and see what might be in the bowl. A piece of crud could have dislodged and might be blocking the main jet or some thing that that is why it has no balls at speed and is slow getting there.

Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:57 pm

After my initial call with them, I haven't talked to them again. Wanted to have time to mess with it.

They said to bring it back to them in 500 miles and they would check everything out, do a valve adj, etc. I was hoping to use that as a point to go over all the outstanding things with them.

Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:15 pm

BigBlueVW.blogspot.com wrote:

What is worse than a $1.00 plastic fuel filter near the distributor?

One without clamps.
Please relocate your filter and properly clamp all hoses. While you are at it safety wire the hoses at the pump and carb.

Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:42 pm

dan macmillan wrote:
What is worse than a $1.00 plastic fuel filter near the distributor?.
A cheapo aftermarket 009 and a beetle exhaust that lays the stank on you as you fiddle :P

Bigblue, heed Kiefernets advice and probe that carb, I doubt you can make it run worse and I'll bet there's something funky in there.

Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:42 pm

yep, that is just bizarre that it came from a shop with that fuel filter and no clamps on the hoses. I get upset when I see people use plumbing clamps but even those are better then no clamps. Thats some crazy shit :)

Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:22 am

I strongly agree with the posts above about getting the fuel filter away from the distributor and adding the proper clamps (http://www.germansupply.com, PN GS 104 Kit)…

The fuel pump you have on the engine never came on a1600 DP motor(68-70 SP yes), it would be wise to pull the top off of the pump and check to make sure it’s internal filter is not clogged. I would also check to make sure it is putting out the correct fuel volume check manual… FYI something as simple as the thickness of the fuel pump gaskets could be causing insufficient fuel volume… with the pump off(not the base, aka intermediate flange), the fuel rod should sticks out .5” or 13mm at its highest point. Too thin a gasket and your fuel pressure will be too high…

The carburetor in the picture seems to be a Brazilian/Mexican CA smog carburetor, and it’s probably jetted for a VW Bug = jetted extremely lean to pass CA smog. Also your carburetor most likely has a too big air correction jet for your heavy bus (smaller = more fuel to move heaver bus)

There is a very good chance you are wasting a lot of time trying to tune an un-tunable carburetor, you should check to see if you have throttle shaft play in your carburetor; if yes(any noticeable play up/down/forwards/backwards) then send it to keifernet for a rebuild and re-jetting for busses, also if you decided to keep the 009 then have the carburetor jetted richer than normal to compensate for lack of the vacuum advance signal to the distributor…

If your carburetor is not jetted and tuned correctly; even if your timing is on speck, your fuel mixture could be so far off that your timing is not what the engine needs to run at that fuel mixture = wasting your time because your Air fuel mixture affects what timing you need; richer than stock speck means you need needs less advanced because the flame propagates faster – lean = need more advance because the flame propagates slower…. To make usable power you need to time the peak pressure so that it is just at TDC; before or after and you will have/feel less power from the engine…

In short you may think you have your engine timed correctly but if your carburetor is off then your timing is off too!

Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:02 am

What the Lionhearted said. That's an old style Pierburg pump. I wouldn't think it should be used for a dual port engine, but if it's not clogged up inside, doesn't leak gas down into the case, and puts out correct pressure, then leave it alone for now. Since you're gonna move the fuel filter, make sure the rubber grommet is intact where the metal line passes through the front tin.
I'd consider one of Keith's rebuilt carbs for your application; he may core that one you have on there. Looks like your air filter assembly is hooked up correctly.
By the way, how's your oil pressure? I've never seen a full-flow (or is it true full-flow?) oil cooler/filter system plumbed that way out of/ into the engine case. I'd consider something thinner than 20/50 oil, this is what your invoice said they put in your engine, unless it's like 90 degrees outside right now where you live.
Do keep us informed on your situation with the shop and further developements with all that.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:31 am

Please please disclose the shop.....I had nothing but horrible luck dealing with the Bay Area VW shops when I moved their a year ago from the PNW. I had always wanted to get on here and complain but never went through with it. Buslab in Berkeley: Wanted to charge me for anything and everything. Fealt like our breif face to face introduction was being charged by the minute. LaVerre's was great talk but horrible delivery. They trashed my brand new interior, while never calling me to give updates on the work or when I could pick up the vehicle. I ended up having to correct all work myself, which is what I didn't have time for in the first place, and was the reason I was willing to pay somone to do the work. I have stopped into a shop in San Rafael that seamed to know their stuff and have been around for a while. They had their own machine shop and did their own rebuilds. Perhaps I can find the name if you are interested.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:32 am

Brett,
All of these posts have given you more than enough ammunition to fight the shop with. If the GARAGE won't make it right, you could easily consider legal action. By not sufficiently clamping your fuel lines and adding that filter above the cheap ass distributor they have given you an extremely unsafe vehicle in return for your hard earned money. Call them on it.

If you'd like, I'll stop by and tell them how horrible I've heard their service is on this website.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:36 am

I've just discovered this conversation. I don't have an aircooled bus anymore so I never look at this forum. But I have owned multiple busses, two vanagons, other VW's, and worked on many more.

I have rebuilt flat four VW engines of different types and payed close attention to deck height and compression, and its effect on power.

To answer the original poster's main question: Your van's loss of power is due to the addition of 2mm shims, as listed in the receipt from the shop. Other posters have pointed this out but I will reconfirm it: even with the correct distributor, exhaust, etc, you won't get engine power without removing those shims and setting deck height correctly.

The shop has admitted to you that the compression has dropped significantly due to their work, and yet they act like it's no big deal. This shows that they either don't know anything about engines, or they're lying to your face. Either way I doubt you should put your trust in that shop.

I know from my experiments as an amatuer engine builder that adding 2mm of deck height to a combustion chamber is huge; it's enough to turn a strong running engine into a dog. Despite the other problems that may be present (those fuel lines on the filter look dangerous!), I doubt that you will get your engine power back until you remove those shims. The only question is whether you want that shop to fix their mistakes, or do you want to find a different shop, or do it yourself in your new garage?

If you do the work yourself please take your time and do your research. I would recommend getting more than one book, including Tom Wilson's "how to rebuild the aircooled Volkswagen," as well as the Bentley manual for your bus. Good Luck and take the time to do it right!

Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:03 pm

funagon wrote: I've just discovered this conversation. I don't have an aircooled bus anymore so I never look at this forum. But I have owned multiple busses, two vanagons, other VW's, and worked on many more.

I have rebuilt flat four VW engines of different types and payed close attention to deck height and compression, and its effect on power.

To answer the original poster's main question: Your van's loss of power is due to the addition of 2mm shims, as listed in the receipt from the shop. Other posters have pointed this out but I will reconfirm it: even with the correct distributor, exhaust, etc, you won't get engine power without removing those shims and setting deck height correctly.

The shop has admitted to you that the compression has dropped significantly due to their work, and yet they act like it's no big deal. This shows that they either don't know anything about engines, or they're lying to your face. Either way I doubt you should put your trust in that shop.

I know from my experiments as an amatuer engine builder that adding 2mm of deck height to a combustion chamber is huge; it's enough to turn a strong running engine into a dog. Despite the other problems that may be present (those fuel lines on the filter look dangerous!), I doubt that you will get your engine power back until you remove those shims. The only question is whether you want that shop to fix their mistakes, or do you want to find a different shop, or do it yourself in your new garage?

If you do the work yourself please take your time and do your research. I would recommend getting more than one book, including Tom Wilson's "how to rebuild the aircooled Volkswagen," as well as the Bentley manual for your bus. Good Luck and take the time to do it right!

I have a problem with the shim addition because it's not clear that the shop cc'ed either the old or the new heads. I would have no problem with the shim addition IF they actually calculated CR and it came to more than 6.5:1. My recently completed 1679DP uses .100" shims (2.5mm), has 6.7 compression, and will run right to 70 mph. Stock cam/carb/heads, header with single QP.

I'm still very suspect of the Chinese 009 and would recommend putting the known good stock DVDA back on before trying anything more. But I now suspect fuel flow as well--easy to check and fix, as some posters above have said.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:13 pm

Melville wrote:
Quote: I have a problem with the shim addition because it's not clear that the shop cc'ed either the old or the new heads. I would have no problem with the shim addition IF they actually calculated CR and it came to more than 6.5:1.

I would agree with you Melville, because we don't know what the shop measured or why they added the shims. But the original poster wrote:
Quote: Okay - I talked to the shop today. He said that . . . he lowered the compression by adding the shims. I haven't done a check, but he said the compression on my engine before the work was around 150 on the 3 good cylinders. Now, compression is around 110 on all of them.

Going from 150 psi to 110 on all four cylinders, in a VW bus engine? That's a huge drop in compression. All by itself that accounts for the loss in power that BigBlueVW is suffering.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:40 pm

2mm is approximately 80 thousandths of an inch. That's a long way from a target squish of .040". By going over .040" in deck height your power will typically suffer to no real gain.

If you must have a filter in the engine compartment, then uses a metal one with clamps. If you also run AN stainless steel braided hose, you will have greatly improved the fire resistance of your fuel system. You can also bring the fuel into the engine compartment from the tank by a solid steel line. You want to join the steel line to the rubber hose at the very top of the engine compartment so the junction is well above the level of the fuel in the gas tank. By doing this you will greatly lessen the chance of gravity feeding fuel to a fire should one start.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:47 pm

campinpoptop wrote: Please please disclose the shop.

For the sake of other ACVWs and their owners, I second this.
Among other things, they said that:
1) BigBlue's stock dizzy is a 009-X
2) BigBlue's stock exhaust was two-tip-XX
3) It's okay to put an inline filter inside the engine compartment without any clamps-XXX
Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

These guys need to be avoided.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:38 pm

Wildthings wrote: 2mm is approximately 80 thousandths of an inch. That's a long way from a target squish of .040". By going over .040" in deck height your power will typically suffer to no real gain.

If you must have a filter in the engine compartment, then uses a metal one with clamps. If you also run AN stainless steel braided hose, you will have greatly improved the fire resistance of your fuel system. You can also bring the fuel into the engine compartment from the tank by a solid steel line. You want to join the steel line to the rubber hose at the very top of the engine compartment so the junction is well above the level of the fuel in the gas tank. By doing this you will greatly lessen the chance of gravity feeding fuel to a fire should one start.

Squish will be nowhere near .040 on a stocker. Stock was .065ish. To get to .040 and have reasonable compression BOTH the cylinders would need to be shortened AND the chambers would need to be opened up. We still have no idea what the chamber size on our guy's old and new heads was. The worrisome part is that the builder doesn't seem to know either.

Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:24 pm

whc03grady wrote: campinpoptop wrote: Please please disclose the shop.

For the sake of other ACVWs and their owners, I second this.
Among other things, they said that:
1) BigBlue's stock dizzy is a 009-X
2) BigBlue's stock exhaust was two-tip-XX
3) It's okay to put an inline filter inside the engine compartment without any clamps-XXX
Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

These guys need to be avoided.

I already disclosed the name; THE GARAGE. Petaluma, CA. I saw Big Blue sitting there one day on my way to Two Rock and figured it out.