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Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:28 am

In the street rod community there is a "half rack" that replaces the old, clapped out Vega steering box. Those that have used it rave about it. Rack & pinion would be a nice way to go but the steering shaft in front of the front end makes it difficult. A double "A" arm with front steer would be a very good solution, just that the engineering and small market make it tuff.

Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:53 am

Although that contraption is not true rack and pinion, I do see where it has some value - For the really low guys as previously stated.
If they had just taken a different marketing approach it would have been all the rave over here.
Maybe "Low Profile Steering Gear"? Then $1100 would seem like chump change if it was the solution for all the "steering box scrapers"
Mike

Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:06 am

Can't find it on the site must have been a big hit. :roll:

Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:26 am

Runboy wrote:
If they had just taken a different marketing approach it would have been all the rave over here.
Maybe "Low Profile Steering Gear"? Then $1100 would seem like chump change if it was the solution for all the "steering box scrapers"
Mike

1100 chump change for the 'solution' ? the solution is to spend a weekend raising your steering box for FREE.

OR convert to a true rack and pinion.

Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:12 am

Viande wrote: Can't find it on the site must have been a big hit. :roll:

It is.
Lot's of busses have them over here in europe
and I've heard nothing but good about them.
The bus handels a lot different from a bus with
a stock steeringbox even if it's a reconditioned one.

(Still a lot of cash)

Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:33 pm

Can someone explain to me why the half rack is not a real rack & pinion?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:54 pm

alright, maybe the wording needs to be rephrased. it is a real rack and pinion, but it is not the optimal rack and pinion. It does NOTHING except replace the stock bus steering box. Infact, if the 'new' steering box is not in perfect condition, it would also contribute to the slop in the system.

I dont see the point of leaving the center swing arm and stock style tie rods if youre going to add a rack.

even the two systems I posted are not optimal as the vanagon box can still have play.

Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:08 pm

On a true rack and pinion, the rack has a number of grooves in it much like an upside down hair comb. The pinion acts like a screw turns and the rack moves in the direction that it is being turned until it comes to its end stop, and the other direction vise versa. Usually the tie rod ends connect to the tie rods at both ends of the rack. The picture of the rack and pinion as it is used in the bus shows the tie rods connected other than on the ends off the rack, though I can quite tell how they are connected, but at the very least, not utilizing the full rack but a partial use of it, hence the term half rack ideally a smaller rack should have probably been used in a more correct manner, though there may be restrictions with the current geometry and limited space requirements,

Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:54 pm

Not sure about this but I think steering "boxes" fall into two different catigories, rack & pinion and recycle ball. The later will have a Pitman arm which attaches to rods to move the wheels. The rack will eliminate several tie rods and is lineal. Problem with trying to adapt a rack to a VW bus is the steering column needs to turn back to connect to the rack thereby introducing several "U" joints which could bind if the turn is too great. Moving the spindle steering arms to the front and using a front steer rack would bring this problem closer to a functional solution. Until then, any modification of the steering is a STEP in the right direction.

Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:53 pm

youre exactly right.

just to clarify, have you seen the creative engineering rack we are talking about?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:06 pm

The Rack pictured under the Red Bus is a Center Mount Rack (tie rods connect in the middle). If you were to use a rack that connects out at the ends with little short tie rods, you are going to have bumpsteer central. The vw suspension geometry is already an abortion from the get go. It "just works" Barely. Tweak things too far with some aspects of stock design still in there and you have a mess.

Does anyone know who's bus that is with the cross-chassis steering setup? Maybe they can post in and share their results and experimentations.
Mike

Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:41 pm

Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:48 pm

I think if I was trying to get down in the dirt I would consider that setup over a steering box raise/hack job. assuming this thing increases ground clearance? Especially if I were dealing with something of some significant value but still wanted to lower it.

How about the rest of you?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:50 pm

Good point about the bump steer. Only way to solve that is with a complete front end change to upper and lower "A" arms. I think they make one for the bug. Opens up many possibilities, coil springs, coil over shocks, air ride, cheap brakes, thousands of wheels BUT it would require one off engineering. Not worth the effort?

Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:58 pm

I have a design for a double A arm front suspension, but youre right its not practical for sale or mass construction due to modifications needed that most people could not perform.

the conventional suspension mods and steering work great.

same with a optimal rack and pinion, it will require much work, which the masses can not handle. The creative engineering kit is bolt on, which is nice for the weekend wrencher, but it is a shitload of money for little benefit.

Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:02 am

I thought the hydraulic dampener was to kill off the already existing bump-steer.

Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:51 pm

BarryL wrote: I thought the hydraulic dampener was to kill off the already existing bump-steer.

bump-steer is a condition when the toe is changed by suspension travel. whether it's toe-in or toe-out the more suspension travel the more toe change because as the tie rod moves farther from paralell the distance between its two mounting points gets farther or closer depending on the direction of travel and because the tie rod does not get any longer when this happens you get toe change which with drastic changes gives you bump steer. the dampener IIRC was added to alleviate a steering wobble that certain bumps in the road caused.

Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:59 pm

doubledoor is right.

the steering dampner is also to minimize the skittishness of a stock bus due to the zero degrees of caster built into the front suspension. If a stock bus had 5 degrees of caster, it would track much better and not be affected by road conditions as much (grooves, cracks, crowns etc).

there is no way to eliminate bump steer on a vw beam-style suspension. equal length double A arm suspensions can be setup for zero bumpsteer.

Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:00 pm

btw....I would call that monstrosity CE crappy engineering not CE creative engineering. it's more of an alternative steerinig gear than a true "rack"

a rack is nice because it reduces points of power transfer ie. tie rod adjusting sleeves, idler arms center pins and so on. This system adds transfer points via the transfer box. it's probably good and tight feeling when it's new but when it starts to wear over time it will be worse than a stock worn gear box. plain and simple more points in the steering system to give you play

Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:04 pm

sled wrote: doubledoor is right.

the steering dampner is also to minimize the skittishness of a stock bus due to the zero degrees of caster built into the front suspension. If a stock bus had 5 degrees of caster, it would track much better and not be affected by road conditions as much (grooves, cracks, crowns etc).

there is no way to eliminate bump steer on a vw beam-style suspension. equal length double A arm suspensions can be setup for zero bumpsteer.

it can be done it would involve complete re-engineering of the steering system ( not box ) itself. geometry changes and so forth. can it be done ...yes is it worth it.....probably not. I like to drive old cars cause they drive like old cars. If I wanted precision I would spend the 1000 bucks on a beat honda accord or some other late model turd :lol: