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Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:39 am

deluxekombi67 wrote: now it would be very rude of me to ask...."HOW MUCH DID YOU PAY", but with that being said what would a car like this sell for to a collector? I cant imagine the guys that found it paid a lot....but now that everyone knows what it is im sure it made the price soar..what do you guys think is a fair market price?? or is there even one?
As I heard it was not a money....... something more amazing :)

http://www.garbatastokrotka.pl/galeria/wilno_09/fot_artek_canon_303

But not for 100 percent.

Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:01 am

You got it, Magnus!

Money isn't everything....

Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:34 am

I don't mean to be rude or anything, just mentioning this as friendly information if anyone cares...
I'm very sure all VW 38 and 39 had 2x23 air intake slots under the rear windows, not 2x21...
Look at old brochures and VW 3803 for example.

Maybe it's already been mentioned earlier? I realize changing this would be a lot of work...

Kind regards,
Ken.

Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:50 am

noheb wrote: I don't mean to be rude or anything, just mentioning this as friendly information if anyone cares...
I'm very sure all VW 38 and 39 had 2x23 air intake slots under the rear windows, not 2x21...
Look at old brochures and VW 3803 for example.

Maybe it's already been mentioned earlier? I realize changing this would be a lot of work...

Kind regards,
Ken.

read the thread. this has already been covered.

The window clip is just a temporary one held on with a couple screws.

Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:09 pm

Undis wrote:

Here is a group shot of the restoration team who are taking on the task of getting this VW38 back to the way it should be:

front left Christian Grundmann, right Traugott Grundmann
back left Roman Sobkowiak (engine mechanics, front axle and gear box ), then Thomas Sobkowiak (Electric stuff and smaller items like steering wheel and headlights,... ) then Jaczek from Warsaw (details special stuff, seats,.. ) and Björn Schewe ( history, pics,.. )
… and a couple of weird characters in the background – not identified :lol:

Weird characters in background? How about the Luftwaffe eagle in the background? :?

Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:11 pm

Undis wrote: You got it, Magnus!

Money isn't everything....

Undis! You were there? In Lithuania??? If yes (but I didn't think so) sorry I did not meet You. Maybe at meeting in Latvia in July.

Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:17 pm

Undis wrote: You got it, Magnus!

Money isn't everything....

OMFG!!!.. what a view!!

check that kommanderswagen in front... that is the war car i would choose as my fave!!! OMG :shock:

Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:05 pm

As a big time history buff and lifelong lover of VW's, thank you, thank you, thank you for finding, and more importantly sharing this with us all. This car is a testament to the ingenuity and love that VW people have for our cars. Not only you guys who are bringing it back to what it started life as, but the guy that did who knows what to keep the damn thing alive and on the road for 60 years.

I would absolutely give me chills to be around that car given the fact that men who are legends to me likely drove it when it was new.

Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:12 pm

MagnusMM wrote:

Undis! You were there? In Lithuania??? If yes (but I didn't think so) sorry I did not meet You. Maybe at meeting in Latvia in July.

Unfortunately I did not manage to go to Lithuania last weekend. I heard it was a superb event. Especially I would have loved to see the new arrival - Type 82e!!!

My car is still missing its interior, but it will be finished for the July event in Latvia for sure.

Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:47 am

I was there in at this event. After 20 years of vistiting VW-Shows I have to say that everybody who were not there missed something. A realy nice meeting on a beautyful place - very nice people, very pretty girls and very tasty beer and Schnaps. Definitly not the last time that Mike and me have visited this beautyful country named Lithunia

Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:48 pm

Björn Schewe wrote: I was there in at this event. After 20 years of vistiting VW-Shows I have to say that everybody who were not there missed something. A realy nice meeting on a beautyful place - very nice people, very pretty girls and very tasty beer and Schnaps. Definitly not the last time that Mike and me have visited this beautyful country named Lithunia.

Björn, I was told you would go there. Respect! All the way in the Heb.
I hope I will ride mine also everywhere someday when it drives again.

Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:57 am

any news? I´m eager to see some new info!

Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:34 am

Things have been very quiet lately. The guys must be extra busy with something... I think we should look forward to the Hessisch Oldendorf show. :wink:

Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:04 am

Hello from Germany,

after reading the whole thread with a lot of heartbeat (denn ich dachte ja, Christians blaue Neuerwerbung wäre "das Ding des Jahres") I want to come back to whitewalls list from the Käfer Revue (quoted at the bottom).

Ulrich von Pidoll did some research much earlier, so his information might be outdated, but his list differs a little from what Käfer Revue stated.

Since this thread became an enormous source for knowledge on the early VWs, this is a good place for Pidolls list:

Best Regards

Jörg

In eigener Sache: Björn und Christian, meine allergrößte Bewunderung für Euren Einsatz - wann schreibt Ihr ein Buch über Eure Erlebnisse bei der Teile-/Fahrzeugjagd?

Bitte weiter so, Enthusiasten wie Euch braucht die Szene, die nicht nur reden, sondern handeln...

whitewalls wrote: Hi guys, some new stuff to discuss.

I found an article in a German beetle magazine named Käfer Revue. In the 2007 issue Dr. Bernd Wiersch, former director of Wolfsburg VW museum, gives a summary of some statistics rediscovered from the estate of Porsche’s nephew Herbert Kaes. It’s a very confusing text and of course it’s written in German. So I tried my best to make it capable for this forum. First there is a complete list of VW38 body numbers and licence plates. It gives the destinations as well. Body numbers and plate numbers did not mach on every car. So it might be interesting in case some numbers are discovered on the Lithuanian car. According to an inventory list dated Dezember 31st 1940, all cars are still there at that time except of the numbers 38/38 and up but some are located elsewhere. Some irritations with the convertibles are occurring, but as long as they had numbers over 38/26 that doesn’t matter in the Lithuanian question.

body no / licence plate / body type / destination / location 1940

38/1 IIIA - 43001 H - // Dr. Porsche KG
38/2 IIIA - 13114 delivery vehicle - //Dr. Porsche KG
38/3 IIIA - 43003 H Dr. Porsche KG, Fallersleben // Dr. Porsche KG
38/4 IIIA - 43004 H customer service Hans Klauser // Fallersleben
38/5 IIIA - 43005 H DAF, Mr. Marrenbach // Berlin
38/6 IIIA - 43006 H Dr. Ley // DAF, Berlin
38/7 IIIA - 43007 H - // customer service Hans Klausner
38/8 IIIA - 43008 H Dr. Posche KG, Fallersleben // Dr. Porsche KG
38/9 IIIA - 43002 H - // Dr. Porsche KG
38/10 IIIA - 43010 R Dr. Piech // Dr. Piech
38/11 IIIA - 43011 R Dr. Porsche // Dr. Porsche KG
38/12 IIIA - 43012 H DAF, Munich // DAF, Munich
38/13 IIIA - 43013 H - // Dr. Porsche KG
38/14 IIIB - 215162 ´39 Kübelwagen Typ 62 Reichskanzlei // Dr. Porsche KG
38/15 test car Dr. Porsche KG // Volkswagenwerk administration, Berlin
38/16 IIIA - 43016 R; finished 1940 Dyckhoff, director of Volkswagenwerk, Fallersleben // Dr. Lafferentz, executive secretary of Volkswagenwerk GmbH
38/17 IIIA - 43017 R Dr. Ley // Dr. Ley
38/18 IIIA - 43018 R Dr. Ley // Dr. Ley
38/19 IIIA - 43015 H Volkswagenwerk administration, Berlin // Dr. Porsche KG
38/20 IIIA - 43020 OKH // Dr. Porsche KG, Kübelwagen Typ 82
38/21 IIIA - 43021 H - // Dr. Porsche KG, Kübelwagen
38/22 IIIA - 43022 R Gauleiter Wagner, Munich // Dr. Porsche KG
38/23 IIIA - 43023 R test car // Dr. Porsche KG
38/24 IIIA - 43024 H - // Dr. Porsche KG
38/25 IIIA - 43025 H - // Dr. Porsche KG
38/26 IIIA - 43026 H - // customer service
38/27 without engine Dr. Porsche KG // Dr. Porsche KG
38/28 without engine chassis ´39 as instruction model to Fallersleben; body to Bosch for electrical testing // Dr. Porsche KG
38/29 IIIA - 43009 R test car - // Dr. Porsche KG
38/30 chassis only instruction model for customer service, Fallersleben // Dr. Porsche KG, righthand driven Typ 66
38/31 IA - 148564 convertible Reichskanzler Hitler // Reichskanzler Hitler
38/32 IIIA - 43019 R test car - // Dr. Porsche KG
38/33 Kübelwagen - Reichskanzlei Dr. Ley // Dr. Porsche KG
38/34 Stationary engine Typ 122 Reichspost // Dr. Ley
38/35 Stationary engine Typ 122 Firma Stiel, Hamburg // Dr. Porsche KG, Kübelwagen
38/36 IIIA - 43044 R test car - // Goebels
38/37 IA - 148564 convertible - // Göring
38/38 IIA - 60705 convertible Rudolf Hess // Rudolf Hess

before 12/31/1940 :

38/39 IIIA - 43032
38/40 IA - 4848 convertible Dr. Ley
38/41 IIIA - 0703 Berlin-Rom-Wagen Typ 64
38/42 IIIA - 43028
38/43 IIIA - 0687 Berlin-Rom-Wagen Typ 64
38/44 IIIA - 43029
38/45 IA - 223232 convertible Reichsmarschall Göring, Berlin
38/46 Berlin-Rom-Wagen Typ 64

And vice versa.

body no. licence plate body type

IIIA - 43001 38/1 H
IIIA - 43002 38/9 H
IIIA - 43003 38/3 H
IIIA - 43004 38/4 H
IIIA - 43005 38/5 H
IIIA - 43006 38/6 H
IIIA - 43007 38/7 H
IIIA - 43008 38/8 H
IIIA - 43009 38/29 R
IIIA - 43010 38/10 R
IIIA - 43011 38/11 R
IIIA - 43012 38/12 H
IIIA - 43013 38/13 H
IIIA - 43015 38/19 H
IIIA - 43016 38/16 R
IIIA - 43017 38/17 R
IIIA - 43018 38/18 R
IIIA - 43019 38/32 R
IIIA - 43020 38/20 Kübelwagen
IIIA - 43021 38/21 H later Kübelwagen
IIIA - 43022 38/22 R
IIIA - 43023 38/23 R
IIIA - 43024 38/24 H
IIIA - 43025 38/25 H
IIIA - 43026 38/26 H; rounded corners on decklid
III A - 43027 R; rounded corners on decklid
IIIA - 43028 38/42 R; rounded corners on decklid
IIIA - 43029 38/44 rounded corners on decklid
IIIA - 43032 38/39 R
IIIA - 43035 38/31 rounded corners on decklid
IIIA - 43044 38/36 R

In January 1944 there are fewer cars left. Only the cars that reside in the Porsche stock are listed.

body no. / licence plate / body type / location 1944

38/1 IIIA - 43001 H Dr. Porsche KG
38/7 IIIA - 43007 H customer service Hans Klausner
38/8 IIIA - 43008 H Dr. Porsche KG
38/10 IIIA - 43010 R Dr. Piech
38/13 IIIA - 43013 H Dr. Porsche KG
38/19 IIIA - 43015 H Dr. Porsche KG
38/21 IIIA - 43021 H Dr. Porsche KG, Kübelwagen
38/25 IIIA - 43025 H Dr. Porsche KG
38/27 without engine Dr. Porsche KG
38/28 without engine Dr. Porsche KG
38/30 chassis only Dr. Porsche KG righthand driven Typ 66
38/31 IA - 148564 convertible Reichskanzler Hitler
38/32 IIIA - 43019 R Dr. Porsche KG
38/33 Kübelwagen Dr. Porsche KG

I had difficulties to decode a very small picture of the last records dated July 28th 1945, yet after the end of the war. The cars have been converted and it’s hard to identify the VW38 cars. These are my results:

body no. / licence plate / body type / notes 1945

38/1 IIIA - 43001 H
38/8 IIIA - 43008 H
38/11 IIIA - 43011 R
38/13 IIIA - 43013 H Typ 230/5 H.K.-Generator
38/19 IIIA - 43015 R
38/24 IIIA - 43024 H Typ 230/4; H.K.-Generator
38/25 IIIA - 43025 H Typ 230/7 H.K.-Generator
38/29 IIIA - 43009 R electrical
38/32 IIIA - 43019 R H.K.-Generator
38/43 IIIA - 0687 Berlin-Rom-Wagen Typ 64
Kdf offen Prof. Porsche
Kdf offen Dr. Piech
38/47 chassis 131/47

And know compared with what we are looking for, which are surviving hardtops, I assume that cars formally owned by Porsche and not listed in 1945, did not survive. In a way, it might be possible, that the DAF cars survived not being registered in any Porsche statistic.

body no. / licence plate / body type / location 1941 / listed 1944 / listed 1945

IIIA - 43001 38/1 H Dr. Porsche KG yes yes
IIIA - 43002 38/9 H Dr. Porsche KG no no
IIIA - 43004 38/4 H Fallersleben no no
IIIA - 43005 38/5 H Berlin no* no*
IIIA - 43006 38/6 H DAF, Berlin no* no*
IIIA - 43007 38/7 H customer service Hans Klausner yes no
IIIA - 43008 38/8 H Dr. Porsche KG yes yes
IIIA - 43012 38/12 H DAF, Munich no* no*
IIIA - 43013 38/13 H Dr. Porsche KG yes yes
IIIA - 43015 38/19 H Dr. Porsche KG yes no*
IIIA - 43021 38/21 H Dr. Porsche KG, Kübelwagen yes no
IIIA - 43024 38/24 H Dr. Porsche KG no yes
IIIA - 43025 38/25 H Dr. Porsche KG yes yes

(*) Car number 38/19 is a ragtop in 1945, so it’s not sure what happened to its body. And we have to keep in mind that 38/5, 38/6 and 38/12 might not be listed because they where out of reach for the Porsche statistics.

According to the fact that the car on display in Autostadt is 38/3 IIIA-43003, it’s very likely that we can narrow it down to 38/1, 38/8, 38/13, 38/24 and 38/25.

What do you think? It’s not a great step ahead, but things become clearer, I hope so.

Regards

Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:34 am

I might have missed something here...but from the official restoration site it seems the body number mystery is solved... Aufbau no 52 ?!

If so - impressive. Is there pictures of the number? Or logic behind it?

Very exciting times in the history of VW-collecting..

Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:51 am

Going by the lists above and all other things I have read, there wasn't a Body number 52 in the VW38 series.

Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:57 am

I'm wondering, since "aufbau nummer" doesn't actually mean "body number", but instead it means "construction number" or "build number", maybe the number 52 means something different?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since this was one of Porsche's prototypes, maybe it was numbered as his 52nd prototype in beetle development (including the pre-1938 prototypes) and not as vw38 #52 which didn't exist? As such, if you take the 30 VW30's, the 3 V303's, and the handful of his other pet projects as the first 38-ish (I'll let someone else who knows those specifics count them), would that not put this car somewhere within the VW38 timeframe? I get somewhere around #14 when I try it, but that's just with loose information on the # of prototypes so I'm not calling it accurate. It's sort of the same pattern Henry Ford followed when he was working through the alphabet to develop the Model T. Of course, this raises speculation as to whether Porsche would have re-numbered some of the earliest prototypes which were rebodied later on?
Once again, just a shot in the dark.

Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:49 pm

Hello,
i must tell you that YOU are getting close !!!
At our show will be the comeing out of our 1938 - so 2 weeks to go and then we will lift the secret !
Christian

Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:57 pm

kdfkid wrote: so 2 weeks to go and then we will lift the secret !
Christian

But please do it here at TheSamba too, not only in Hessisch Oldendorf meeting. :) We will be waiting such long , very long 2 weeks. Thanks

Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:12 pm

kdfkid wrote: At our show will be the comeing out of our 1938 - so 2 weeks to go and then we will lift the secret

Just can't wait Christian.

As like the man above says, please don't forget to post the info and latest photos on this thread, just to feed the hunger of those of us that can't make it to HO. :wink: