TheSamba.com :: View topic - Distributor, Rotor, No spark, Engine won't start

Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:57 am

Hello all.

When I manually turn the engine over, the rotor in the distributor is not rotating.

My ghia died at a traffic light, '69, 1600cc, 4spd. I thought that it made some...ummmm....expen$ive $ound$....the engine tone changed and I heard a clunk. Then it quickly died. It tries to turn over, but it will not start.

When trying to diagnose the no spark problem, I took the distributor cap off to see if the points were opening and closing. The rotor is not turning at all.

Does anyone have any advice? Thank you in advance for your replies.

Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:29 am

broken crank or cam.

Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:41 am

If the starter is turning and the flywheel is turning but the dist is not turning, then either the crank or cam is broke and not turning.

Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:06 pm

I'd pull the distributor and have a look. The end of the distributor shaft may show you what the problem is. Once the distributor is out, rotate the crank pulley by hand and see if the distributor gear is turning. If not, couls be the gear on the cam or the distributor gear or a bad crank or cam.

Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:33 pm

Also, get out your wallet. Not going to be a cheap fix.

There is one thing it might be that won't be too expensive. The distributor may not be seated all the way flush with the case. Not likely, but pray that it is that. Otherwise, you're looking at about $1000 even doing it yourself, and maybe even a lot more once you evaluate everything.

Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:40 pm

Hi there. Thank you for all of your replies.

I did not want to pull the distributor because I was worried about finding TDC again, but...

I pulled the distributor tonight; the shaft on the distributor looks good - - - the teeth look good (no wear). It will turn freely by hand and the rotor on top will turn, too.

Looking inside where it meets the crankcase (?) I can see the groove into which the distributor shaft fits. It is moving when I turn the engine over by hand. This would seem to mean that the distributor shaft became unseated....but...why would that happen? Should I be looking elsewhere for a broken crank or cam other than that simple rotation of the crankshaft?

I'm hoping that I got off lucky.
Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:47 pm

Was the distributor seated down far enough to engage the drive shaft below?
Could be the distributor clamp was slightly loose, or have seen aftermarket clamps never work right, or stock ones that were worn out.

Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:08 pm

Yes, playing with the distributor, it dropped down a little more. The clamp looks cheap. Now, turning the engine over by hand does rotate the rotor.

I think there are many posts here on finding TDC; I will try to figure that out tomorrow and reseat the distributor properly....and tighten up that clamp.

Thanks everyone!

This car is my daily driver :D

Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:52 am

There one more thing you should check without actually splitting the case. You should remove the fuel pump to see down into the area where the distributor gear meets up with your crank. Pull off the pump (remove the two nuts, pull it off). Under the pump there will be a plastic flange, with a little metal rod sticking out (that's your pushrod). Pull out that pushrod first if you can get it with your fingers or a needlenose. If not, remove the plastic flange, but be sure to not drop that pushrod down into the case - you'll not get it out without splitting the case, otherwise.

Sometimes, the plastic flange for the fuel pump is actually the problem - the bottom portion of it can disintegrate and get stuck in your gears. If so, you've got to break open your engine case and clean it all out. Might as well do a quick engine overhaul once you've got it open, if you haven't done that yet.

Keep in mind as you're pulling this part off, you don't want to drop ANYTHING down into this area - you can't get it out without splitting the case.

If the plastic flange is ok, you can replace it, but if not, you should figure that there are pieces down in the case and you can count on splitting your case and cleaning it out.

If you have to replace the plastic piece, chances are you'll have to replace the pushrod, too. The end will wear against the cam - if the end that contacts the cam is flat, rather than pointed, it is worn. This impacts the amount of fuel you get, especially as your tank begins to empty.

Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:49 am

Here's some interesting reading: http://www.vw-resource.com/find_tdc.html

Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:56 am

Hi there,
One question on your link:

1. Find Top Dead Center (TDC) -

* If you are uncertain as to which mark is which on the crankshaft pulley, determine TDC as follows:

1. Remove the #1 spark plug.

Note: The #1 cylinder is on the right side, closest to the front of the car.

My question, does front of car mean the front of the car? Meaning as I'm looking at the engine, is the #1 cylinder on the right hand side, furthest back (closest to the fan shroud)? I think I'm off one plug.
Thank you in advance for your help. Since I had the distributor out, I decided to change the cap, plugs, wires, new rotor, condensor & points.

Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:05 am

Yes, front is front. #1 is on the right, furthest back toward the firewall, as you've noted.

You may even notice, if you have stock engine tin, there is a "1" stamped into the shroud that covers your cylinder head (just to the right of the spark plug, if you're looking at it from the back of the car).

Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:20 pm

If you are having trouble finding TDC; look into the hole where the distributor fits and note the orientation of the slot in the drive gear,
align the distributor to fit into the slot and place the distributor back into the hole. Push down slowly until the distributor begins to bottom out then
rotate the rotor a bit until everything is engaged, then push the distributor home. You should have no space at at between the lower distributor body
and the clamp and the case. NONE ! It MUST sit totally flush. Now the distributor is all the way down and in and set.

If it's a stock distributor rotate the body until the vacuum canister is pointing rearwards, if it an 009 distributor rotate the body until the little
ovoid inspection hole cover plate is pointing at the fuel pump hold down nut.

This will get you in the ball park.

NOW pull the number one plug wire and set it against one of the nuts holding the generator stand in place. Turn the ignition key to "ON" and
rotate the engine by hand until you see the spark jump from the plug wire to the nut. THAT'S now TDC or close enough. Make sure that the hash mark
on the rim of the distributor body is lined up with the rotor, it ought to be close, and tighten things down slightly.

Button everything up, start the car and put on a timing light to fine tune the timing to the setting required by the model/type of distributor.

DONE!

I THINK ! ! ! ! At least it'll get you started . . .

Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:06 pm

Hi all.
Well....I'm still having problems. After I replaced everything, the car ran for about half a block then died.

I thought that the distributor had become unseated again; I replaced the cheap clamp with an OEM.

But.....As I turn the engine over, I have spark at the points, but there is no spark at the spark plugs. Points, plugs, plug wires, cap, condensor and ignition coil are all new.

Would this indicate a broken cam or crank, as in the first reply to this question? Would this indicate a bad distributor?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:58 pm

Does your rotor still turn? If it does you should be getting spark at the plugs.
Maybe all that new electrical stuff burnt up the resistor in your old rotor.

Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:38 pm

Hi there. Yes, the rotor is turning and there's a spark at the points.
The condensor is new...is that the same as the resistor? Could the new condensor be faulty? On a side note, are all condensors pretty much the same? Can I swap one from another distributor without too much worry?
-Curious...

Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:54 am

Is your battery still fully charged?

Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:15 am

Look inside the distributor cap. There should be a center pin made of a carbon material with a spring located in the center of the distributor cap. If the cap doesn't have the center electrode or the spring, not spark whatsoever will make it to the plugs. Sometimes when changing the distributor cap, the center electrode (pin) will fall out and when the person installes the electrode back into the cap they forget about the little spring. That spring keeps the electrode pressed against the top of the rotor. Also make certain the screw securing the points is tight. If not the opints may slip open to far and although you're getting spark the gap is to wide and doesn't fire in time.

Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:34 pm

I would almost suspect a faulty transmission nosecone to frame ground strap. Look under the car at the front of the trans. There should be a braided copper strap. Make sure the connections are clean and tight.

Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:11 am

Here is a thought.. happened on a non VW distributer, however may still be relevant..

Had a car that would keep going out of timing - would idle then when you revved the engine, it would die....

the reason....

a split pin in the distributer shaft had broken, so when under load the rotor would not spin..

take out the distributer and with load check if it keeps turning...

just a thought! :roll: