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Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:13 pm

OK, I've thoroughly searched and I'm not the only one with this problem but I haven't found the complete answer to my exact situation. '79 2l Type 4 with 6 rib 091 tranny.

I got the flywheel off and the pilot bearing is completely destroyed, part was stuck in the flywheel hole, I drove that part out. However, it looks like some of the remnants are fused in the crank too but I can't tell how much. How do I know what needs to be removed? There's a ridge about 1 cm in which I can gouge with the dremel but still won't chisel out but the part closer to the outside, which also appears to be extra metal, is too hard to even groove with the dremel.

This is a new bus to me so I don't know what happened to it but the clutch material was totally off and packed into the flywheel and all of the seals were leaking and the oil slinger was loose. It probably was caused by the bad pilot bearing and the PO must have kept driving it until the clutch disintegrated.

The new bearing is 21mm and it appears that the hole is 19mm so I think more material needs to come out but it is hard stuff!!! I also can't figure out why what appeared to be the outer race was stuck in the flywheel hole.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Dirk

Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:26 pm

can you post a picture? sounds to me like you may have the 'guts' out of it, but the 'cage' may be in the crank. really need a visual to help you

Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:28 pm

Find a carbide burr for your Dremel and keep grinding.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:37 pm

busdaddy wrote: Find a carbide burr for your Dremel and keep grinding.

that is most likely what needs to happen, but i would rather see it to make sure. i don't know if the crank is chewed up, or old bearing remains are in the crank. i would hate to have the guy hog out his crank for nothing :P

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:04 pm

Hydraulic it out with grease and a wood dowel or your clutch alignment tool.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:11 pm

Quote: Hydraulic it out with grease and a wood dowel or your clutch alignment tool.

what you do is stuff the hole solid with grease and put a big bolt or oak dowel in it that just fits. Then you drive the dowel or bolt into the grease using a hammer. If you have packed it tight without air, the blows will push the part out.

There is also a pilot bearing puller tool at Harbor Freight or you can rent one that hooks behind the remnant and pulls it out.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:12 pm

It might not be easy to see but here:

Dirk

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:12 pm

I've had luck with the hydraulic method with pilot bushings, but bearings don't seem to come out, particularly if the needles have escaped.

You can rent a pilot bearing puller at most auto parts stores:

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=535403

If it's the outer cage, you can take a sharp metal chisel and make a cut down the side of the outer cage. You'll be able to get hold of this with a pair of needle-nose pliars and pull the bushing out. You don't care about the bushing anyway! The Dremel method would also work, but I'd be afraid of getting into the crank metal.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:18 pm

Carbide burr would be nice, but you can do it with just a stone chucked in to your Dremel. Should take about 5 minutes or less to grind one edge all the way through. Try not to gouge the crankshaft too badly. If it has not welded itself in place a single cut along the side will do, but if it has spun and welded you may have to make multiple cuts.

If you have an oxy-actylene torch you can heat one side of the bearing shell a cherry red, and then let it cool. The bearing may then fall right out.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:32 pm

what does the pilot shaft look like on the trans?

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:39 pm

Oxy acetelyne works best as per previous post. remember to put about a two peanut size amount of grease on the bearing then spread it around the bearing w/a phillips screwdriver. in fact, even if you pull the motor again five minutes after installation, put grease on again. use hi-temp sta-lube disc brake wheel bearing grease. stuff that comes w/clutch kits, etc is not so good and proabably not enough.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:41 pm

The shaft has a couple pretty nice circumferential grooves in it. I hope it's still usable.
The gouges in the photos are my work trying to getting the metal out.

Dirk

Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:48 pm

i am not a T4 guy, but your crank looks to have a shoulder in it to prevent the bearing from going in too far. (someone should be able to confirm this) you will need to clean off the burrs on the flywheel and in the crank. weather or not you have to go in too deep is beyond me, but if i had to guess, the step in the crank looks factory, and not a part of a bearing cage

Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:01 pm

I would think that the crank has a step to keep the bearing in position but the step I see is more of a bump and doesn't look uniform. Also, the bearing doesn't seem like it will fit the way it is.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:21 pm

Sage79 wrote: I would think that the crank has a step to keep the bearing in position but the step I see is more of a bump and doesn't look uniform. Also, the bearing doesn't seem like it will fit the way it is.

I just went through this on an 1800 I installed for a friend. It looked exactly the same, everything but the cage came out.

Don't waste time chiseling or packing with grease (I can't see that working unless the whole bearing was in there).

The aforementioned dremel tool method works great. I did fine with a dremel and a worn out old grinding wheel attachment. After an hour of messing with it, five minutes with the dremel and I had a slot ground through to the crank. It then was very easy to collapse with a chisel and pull out.

I did use the dremel to clean up the crank afterwards.

Good luck!

EDIT: PS - there definitely is a shoulder in there that the bearing hits against.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:17 pm

Same deal happened to the engine I bought for my Safare'. I used a scratch awl to get the old one out.

Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:28 pm

Earthcreatur wrote: ... remember to put about a two peanut size amount of grease on the bearing then spread it around the bearing w/a phillips screwdriver. in fact, even if you pull the motor again five minutes after installation, put grease on again. use hi-temp sta-lube disc brake wheel bearing grease. stuff that comes w/clutch kits, etc is not so good and proabably not enough.

Years ago an "old school" mechanic told me to use Bosch distributor point grease (from the yellow and black tube) on these bearings as it was very stiff and so wouldn't come out onto the flywheel. I've always used it and never had a pilot bearing problem since. Seems odd to use a thick, low pressure grease for this application but remember that this bearing isn't stressed and spends 95% of its life with the shaft stationary to the flywheel but with the bearing still rotating. You want the grease to be viscous.

Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:29 am

fukengruvenoval wrote: Sage79 wrote: I would think that the crank has a step to keep the bearing in position but the step I see is more of a bump and doesn't look uniform. Also, the bearing doesn't seem like it will fit the way it is.

I just went through this on an 1800 I installed for a friend. It looked exactly the same, everything but the cage came out.

Don't waste time chiseling or packing with grease (I can't see that working unless the whole bearing was in there).

The aforementioned dremel tool method works great. I did fine with a dremel and a worn out old grinding wheel attachment. After an hour of messing with it, five minutes with the dremel and I had a slot ground through to the crank. It then was very easy to collapse with a chisel and pull out.

I did use the dremel to clean up the crank afterwards.

Good luck!

EDIT: PS - there definitely is a shoulder in there that the bearing hits against.

The hydraulic method works fine even if the rollers are missing, unless the cage is welded to the crank. You do need to use a tight fitting dowel.

Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:09 pm

The scratch awl picture above is pretty much what I did with a small sharp chisel Just keep whacking away until the bushing is cut to the far end, then pull the remains out. I use a chisel from my late Dad's collection that is cut at an angle that prevents it from slipping into the central bore when hit. I don't know if it came that way or if he shaped it himself, but it wouldn't be difficult to duplicate from any small metal-cutting chisel.

Circumferential grooving on the pilot shaft shouldn't be much of a problem as long as it is smooth. Radial grooving would be a problem.

One overall caution with the hydraulic method: Some modern cranks (not aircooled VW) have a plugged hole for the pilot bearing. Using the hydraulic method can blow the plug out of these cranks!

Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:42 pm

I finally got it out!!

I used up a diamond bit in the dremel, then got a new tungsten carbide one and grooved the metal into small pieces which then came out with pursuation from a curved back chisel and a small sledge. I went to the hardware store looking for a cape chisel, which I also bought, but the curved back of similar shape was the ticket. After getting about half of it out in little pieces, the other half came right out.

Thanks for the advice everyone.