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JSMskater Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:30 pm

Ok- this is the place for advanced MAP sensor tuning discussions, instructions, feedback, and how-too's. this is also going to be the repository and go-to thread for... "non stock" FI tuning techniques and theory. That includes wiring harness mods, sensor mods, etc. Pretty much anything goes in here since this will (hopefully) not be read and especially not followed by novices.

which brings me to:

IF YOU ARE A NOVICE AND NEW TO D-JET FI YOU SHOULD NOT BE HERE. RETURN AFTER YOU HAVE READ TRAMS FI STICKY, AND EXHAUSTED ALL OTHER BASIC TUNING TECHNIQUES AND PROCEDURES AS OUTLINED IN THE BENTLEY OR IDIOT GUIDE MANUALS AND COUNTLESS THREADS. THESE TECHNIQUES SHOULD NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, BE DONE FIRST.

if you feel like you need more direct assistance, feel free to START YOUR OWN THREAD but please do not clutter this one with basic posts. that's what the other sticky is for.

now that that's out of the way...

Ray-- have at it. Pictures please!

a list of useful links to other discussions we've had in the past:

Map sensors
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=326411&highlight=map+sensor+discussion

Wiring Harnesses
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=333830&highlight=wiring+harness

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336191&highlight=wiring+harness

TVS adjustment
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=340479&highlight=wiring+harness

AAR:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=349563&highlight=fuel+injection

Rough idle at cold start
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=387807

if there are others PM everett with the links so they can be added in.

Let's have some fun guys :D

Adriel Rowley Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:56 pm

Joe, first thank you for starting this thread! =D>

B.T.W. was in the process of advance tuning in January. Now I need to drive it to be sure what is what after getting rid of the head leak, and to find anything also. Plus, not sure what I was going to do next. I know now that I want to hot check the valves, which is critical for the F.I.. Plus, I should see if I can get my idle down.

Bobnotch Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:37 am

Joe, it's about time we started a post like this.8) There were a couple of half assed attempts, but nothing really came to fruition. Hopefully we'll also delve into the t-4 version of the D-jet HP tuning as well, so they can get some assistance. I only say that because I know a guy looking for an 037 MPS, but can't find one. He does have a couple of 021s, but the purist in him is still looking for the 037. Are there any huge differences between them Ray? Also, for a 1.7L, should I use an 021 E to go with my "E" brain? I've got a couple of them here that haven't been tampered with (still has the black plastic plug on the end, and the body is rivited together). I'm just asking, because my 1.7 does have the domed pistons, and I want to make sure I've got the right parts to start with.
On another note, my 71 Notch seems to be running well, so I guess it's time to install the new wiring harness, and then double check the resistances of the system (thru the harness) to see how close everything is versus the current modified t-4 harness I'm using. I expect the values to be slightly lower, due to better quality wire. :D
Would a TS 2 (head temp sensor) with a higher ohm reading at room temp be more richer across the board versus one that is say 400 ohms less? Thanks for any assistance.

raygreenwood Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:53 am

Bob, the surest way to tell if the 037 versus 021 will cross over...is to have your buddy post a picture of the unit. In general, there were "0" significant differences in any of the units...starting from the copper diaphram end and moving inward. As far as I have been able to discern with test equipment....there is no difference in the lab test pressure of the aneroid cans that make up the barometric reaction section.

There are differences early to late in the ceramic suspension bearings that hold the armature steady. Other than one wearing better than the other.....thats no real affect on performance. The coils have the same resistance, connections and designs. There are very minor differences in spacing of various parts from one unit/year to another. They do not appear to affect performance. Mainly a build issue.
The leaf springs for suspension all appear to measure the same thickness. There are some lsight variations to washering and shimming of these leaf springs that seems to have more to do with the installation of the various designs of the ceramic support bearings.


All of these small differences are within range of standard adjusting and setting practices....so they are not an issue.

The two points of reference that are different....are the length of the spring horn on the vacuum line end. You have short springs and long springs. I have also found both within the same part #. The longer springs are a stiffere rate and the shorter ones are a softer rate.....in that effect...they appear to work...nearly...equally. One might be slower or faster in actual response.....but they respond approximately the same amount to the same stimulus.
The next real difference is the spring loaded damping flap for the vacuum nipple. A handfull of design differences ...several within the same part number.
These flaps are designed to keep fast throttle transitions from "hammering" the internal parts.
Through my testing I have not yet found that one version or the other makes an real difference.....but if you heavily modify one to either overly restrict its flow....or remove the flap altogether.....it makes noticable RESPONSE changes...but not wholesale baseline fuel mixture changes.

In short....to keep from having possible off-the line or transitional response changes (which should stil be minor)....if the 037 is a long or short spring.....use any late model with a short or long spring.....and it will adjust out fine. Ray

JSMskater Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:39 pm

to avoid simultaneous conversations...

Ray this is where I last left off on my FI harness:

JSMskater wrote: raygreenwood wrote: You know...the funny part is that I have never really checked for where to buy new plug housings. Its hsould not be too hard to find an AMP/Tyco dealer. The problem is that you will have to narrow down the part to a connectior family and then provide Amp/Tyco part #'s. The numbers on the connectors are usually proprietary to the manufacturer of the car you found the plug in but not always.

I have never had a single problem re-using plugs and putting new connectors in them. Ray

if I'm using D-jet plastic plugs, I just re-use them. nothing wrong with them. if I'm switching to L-jet, I just buy new ones cause they're not that expensive relatively speaking.

Ray-- not to bug you but could you get some pics up of your modified L-jet connectors? I want to see how you did it...

I'd really appreciate some pictures of how/what you did before I tear into mine.


On a side note...

look what I found :D






:D :D :D :D 250. NOS. Uncrimped. ECU Connectors.

raygreenwood Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:50 pm

Duuuuuuueeeeeeewwwwwwwd!
Who did you blow to get those!? :shock: :lol:
I have a strip of 30 new ones....and a box of nicely refurbed ones...maybe 75 of them.
I would only use those if all else is being refurbed with new silver plated copper and teflon wires....and L-jet dual cantilever component ends.

You parts whore you! :lol:

Or is it that you only really have one....and you spent all night photoshopping that baggy together just to make my our balls ache?... :wink: Ray

JSMskater Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:15 pm

raygreenwood wrote: Duuuuuuueeeeeeewwwwwwwd!
Who did you blow to get those!? :shock: :lol:
I have a strip of 30 new ones....and a box of nicely refurbed ones...maybe 75 of them.
I would only use those if all else is being refurbed with new silver plated copper and teflon wires....and L-jet dual cantilever component ends.

You parts whore you! :lol:

Or is it that you only really have one....and you spent all night photoshopping that baggy together just to make my our balls ache?... :wink: Ray

Nope those are the real deal -- and I may be able to get some more depending. I also have 150 of the 90* bend type, I think they were used on early ECU/harnesses but honestly I'm not sure.

The wire isn't silver plated but it is the teflon shielded quality wire. I have the L-jet ends-- which is why I asked you for pictures! :wink:

the real thing is I don't know what to do about the 3 and 4 prong connectors -- I was just gonna use my NOS ones (uncrimped -- NOT pigtails) but if there is a relatively EASY way to do the others than I'm on board. But I need pictures and need to know what exactly to look for.

raygreenwood Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:34 am

This is something that I can get back on relatively easy. I have connectors littering my workbench.
The problem is that standard L-jet connectors are thicker than D-jet connectors so they do not properly fit into D-jet plugs. Now...that being said...I do have about 50 of a very thin model of L-jet/dual cantilever connector made to fit something like a 24-28 gauge wire. They are very narrow...really almost too narrow and thin. They ill fit in D-jet plugs but have problems staying inside...and because they are not held centralized very well...you have to be careful plugging them in.

In the next week or so I will be aquiring a new batch of low melt point, indium alloy casting metal. What this is for those who don't know...are a series of special metal alloys that melt....some as low as 120F....others to 400F....that you cna use for making very accurate casting molds of parts. They are used in modeling die-casting molds of accurate parts.

I will be using them to model the inside of an L-jet plug. The metal part that I cast from this will be an inner form or "sprue". From there I can cast the outside of the D-jet plugs to form a "buck" and "marry" the two castings up.
From that point....I have to figure out what I can cast ...plastic wise...that would be worthwhile.
This is a backburner project I have been playing with for about 9 years.

It went back to the back burner because I found enough new parts to make harnesses for myself....that would outlast any stock harness.....and probably me too.

Right now, I can do a "poor mans" injection molding by using polypropylene pellets heated to a goo....and pressure and vacum casting. The problem is that the temperature needed is precariously close to the melting point of the indium casting alloys. Also...polypropylene may becoming dimensionally unstable if the engien gets hot enough.

One of the best candidates right now....is very high temp epoxy resins that are vacuum cast and then baked. Baking will then remove the indium alloy sprues and the indium can be recovered and reused.

I work by a differnt book. Connectivity is everything. To me....preserving correct plugs has no usefulness. In that respect...until I find a fix to use D-jet plugs....I am using the drill and ring terminal method for multiple prong connectors...with L-jet style sub-pig tails....at least thats the plan. I have to get the engine finished before I move much further.

I beleive the 90* angle connectors were used on certain L-jet and Digifant ECU connectors.
This goes back to the front burner.
By the way....I will publish you some photos of how to re-furb D-jet ECU connectors....so no one should throw any of those away.
Sorry...work has been a lot of work lately. Ray

Bleyseng Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:29 am

So what type of MPS does a late type 3 with a "E" ecu need? number?

anyone know the inductance settings using a Wavetek meter?

raygreenwood Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:30 am

I'll have to consult the books when I get home for part #. Russ might chime in...they always seem to be at his fingertips. I have found the type 3 E models work straight to type 4 with minor adjustments.

I have a wavetek...but find it not very useful for adjustments of this nature. Its only use in this manner is for bench setting an MPS that is far enough off that the car cannot start or run safely. Its used for setting basic operating/starting parameters for the MPS.


Its real use to me...is being able to find out how far from maximum inward position (max lean) a give MPS's armature can go. In this way you know your maximum lean point of adjustment where it will stall. Then back safely off from that. In other words...if some goober screwed up teh inner stop point setting (the hex screw setting)....a wavetek can be useful for finding that.
But in reality...most inner stop settings were identical but for a few thousandths. I usually check them with a wire type feeler gauge to simply make sure they have not been moved.

The only time I change the inner stop setting is when you get an MPS...or a system in general ...where you cannot set idle lean enough with the main load screw to keep from scrrewing up the mixture at rpm ranges and throttle settings other than idle and droping fuel pressure further is not an option. In that case you could proceed one of two ways (1) the tedious way of opening the case and using feeler gauges to change the inner stop adjustment .001" at a time.....or (2)with the wavetek by turning the hex screw and checking. They are both equally accurate.

Using the wavetek for the outer full load stop is pointless....as this is a dynamic adjustment and tehre is no relevent factory setting that can be read.....because this is transitional enrichment that only affects your performance off the line or at throttle transition points for shifting. It has no effect on your overall mixture. So you adjust until you get the correct "Effect". This is different for every car and dependent upon both gearing and tires...as well as things like TB sizing and driving style.

What I can do that would be good....is I have a brand neww E type that went into a 412....unmolested. I can read with the wavetek and post what as delivered baseline settings are.

As long as your car starts and runs enough to drive.....and all is mechanically well....99% of all adjustments are better served driving and adjusting...or at worst starting on a rolling dyno. Ray

KTPhil Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:13 am

I would love to see a sequential instructin for adjusting the MPS. One that starts with static setting, then on to steady mid-range, then idel, then full load, then transitional... or some such sequence. That way if we start with a known good engine and sensors (no leaks, wiring consistent, sensors within spec), we could coarse and then fine tune the MPS to our engine. Anyone up for making a flow chart with photo annotations? I'd be uip for formatting it into a PDF when we are done, but I am not clear on what to tweak first.

Adriel Rowley Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:17 am

Found it! http://classicvw.org/gallery2/v/Fuel-Injection-Man...ewsIndex=1

311 906 021E

Bleyseng Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:41 am

raygreenwood wrote: This is something that I can get back on relatively easy. I have connectors littering my workbench.
The problem is that standard L-jet connectors are thicker than D-jet connectors so they do not properly fit into D-jet plugs. Now...that being said...I do have about 50 of a very thin model of L-jet/dual cantilever connector made to fit something like a 24-28 gauge wire. They are very narrow...really almost too narrow and thin. They ill fit in D-jet plugs but have problems staying inside...and because they are not held centralized very well...you have to be careful plugging them in.

In the next week or so I will be aquiring a new batch of low melt point, indium alloy casting metal. What this is for those who don't know...are a series of special metal alloys that melt....some as low as 120F....others to 400F....that you cna use for making very accurate casting molds of parts. They are used in modeling die-casting molds of accurate parts.

I will be using them to model the inside of an L-jet plug. The metal part that I cast from this will be an inner form or "sprue". From there I can cast the outside of the D-jet plugs to form a "buck" and "marry" the two castings up.
From that point....I have to figure out what I can cast ...plastic wise...that would be worthwhile.
This is a backburner project I have been playing with for about 9 years.

It went back to the back burner because I found enough new parts to make harnesses for myself....that would outlast any stock harness.....and probably me too.

Right now, I can do a "poor mans" injection molding by using polypropylene pellets heated to a goo....and pressure and vacum casting. The problem is that the temperature needed is precariously close to the melting point of the indium casting alloys. Also...polypropylene may becoming dimensionally unstable if the engien gets hot enough.

One of the best candidates right now....is very high temp epoxy resins that are vacuum cast and then baked. Baking will then remove the indium alloy sprues and the indium can be recovered and reused.

I work by a differnt book. Connectivity is everything. To me....preserving correct plugs has no usefulness. In that respect...until I find a fix to use D-jet plugs....I am using the drill and ring terminal method for multiple prong connectors...with L-jet style sub-pig tails....at least thats the plan. I have to get the engine finished before I move much further.

I beleive the 90* angle connectors were used on certain L-jet and Digifant ECU connectors.
This goes back to the front burner.
By the way....I will publish you some photos of how to re-furb D-jet ECU connectors....so no one should throw any of those away.
Sorry...work has been a lot of work lately. Ray

Ok, thats all I need as its for a car that the MPS is blown so I don't have a way to pull the settings via a Wavetek for basic settings.
I agree every set is different and you really should set it up on the engine you are running..thats what I do for folks with a 2056 914 running a Raby cam...atleast that gets them really close.
The stop is the stop for MAX full load enrichment and supports the diaphram from over flexing...run one for a while to see how long the diaphram lasts...not long at all, a few weeks.

Adriel Rowley Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:47 am

Bleyseng wrote: raygreenwood wrote: This is something that I can get back on relatively easy. I have connectors littering my workbench.
The problem is that standard L-jet connectors are thicker than D-jet connectors so they do not properly fit into D-jet plugs. Now...that being said...I do have about 50 of a very thin model of L-jet/dual cantilever connector made to fit something like a 24-28 gauge wire. They are very narrow...really almost too narrow and thin. They ill fit in D-jet plugs but have problems staying inside...and because they are not held centralized very well...you have to be careful plugging them in.

In the next week or so I will be aquiring a new batch of low melt point, indium alloy casting metal. What this is for those who don't know...are a series of special metal alloys that melt....some as low as 120F....others to 400F....that you cna use for making very accurate casting molds of parts. They are used in modeling die-casting molds of accurate parts.

I will be using them to model the inside of an L-jet plug. The metal part that I cast from this will be an inner form or "sprue". From there I can cast the outside of the D-jet plugs to form a "buck" and "marry" the two castings up.
From that point....I have to figure out what I can cast ...plastic wise...that would be worthwhile.
This is a backburner project I have been playing with for about 9 years.

It went back to the back burner because I found enough new parts to make harnesses for myself....that would outlast any stock harness.....and probably me too.

Right now, I can do a "poor mans" injection molding by using polypropylene pellets heated to a goo....and pressure and vacum casting. The problem is that the temperature needed is precariously close to the melting point of the indium casting alloys. Also...polypropylene may becoming dimensionally unstable if the engien gets hot enough.

One of the best candidates right now....is very high temp epoxy resins that are vacuum cast and then baked. Baking will then remove the indium alloy sprues and the indium can be recovered and reused.

I work by a differnt book. Connectivity is everything. To me....preserving correct plugs has no usefulness. In that respect...until I find a fix to use D-jet plugs....I am using the drill and ring terminal method for multiple prong connectors...with L-jet style sub-pig tails....at least thats the plan. I have to get the engine finished before I move much further.

I beleive the 90* angle connectors were used on certain L-jet and Digifant ECU connectors.
This goes back to the front burner.
By the way....I will publish you some photos of how to re-furb D-jet ECU connectors....so no one should throw any of those away.
Sorry...work has been a lot of work lately. Ray

Ok, thats all I need as its for a car that the MPS is blown so I don't have a way to pull the settings via a Wavetek for basic settings.
I agree every set is different and you really should set it up on the engine you are running..thats what I do for folks with a 2056 914 running a Raby cam...atleast that gets them really close.
The stop is the stop for MAX full load enrichment and supports the diaphram from over flexing...run one for a while to see how long the diaphram lasts...not long at all, a few weeks.

Save the M.P.S., as it may be repaired.

Tram Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:13 am

Oh, so my thread is for "beginners" now? :evil: Bastids. You guys modify stuff because you can't fix it right. Just admit it. :D

Actually, I'm glad to see this happen. Now you mod guys (and gals) can have your fun whilst us stock Nazis can keep it real on the stock repairs, etc.

JSMskater Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:23 am

Tram wrote: Oh, so my thread is for "beginners" now? :evil: Bastids. You guys modify stuff because you can't fix it right. Just admit it. :D

Actually, I'm glad to see this happen. Now you mod guys (and gals) can have your fun whilst us stock Nazis can keep it real on the stock repairs, etc.

I actually started it so that we wouldn't keep having the same silly argument week after week -- the fact is that whether or not you need to, choose to, or want to do the things that are outlined in this thread, you HAVE to do the stuff in your thread first! There is a RIGHT way and a WRONG way to fix FI-- and I feel that unfortunately the vast majority of people can't be trusted to make the right decision, as has been evidenced time and again when we tell people to fix it first, and then if they REALLY have a small tweak they want to make, you can do X. what do they do? They just do X first and to hell with the rest of it.

that is the WRONG way to do it. for that reason I made this thread. I know you're jk Geo- but to make clear to everyone else -- I would NEVER have gotten to this point if it wasn't for the OG FI sticky, and I stand by the assertion that that IS the way to do it right, and 90% of the time that that thread is more than sufficient to result in an extremely engaging, reliable and fun car to drive. That thread is NOT for beginners- it is a PRE-REQUISITE for anything in here-- it is Elementary, Middle, High, Bachelors, and Masters school for D-jet. This is more like Grad school. some things in here are just extensions of what we know, and some of it might very well be the first time it's ever been tried.

“If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.” -- Mac Daddy Nicky Newton.

Tram Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:28 am

Dang, Dude. Take some supplements. Your humor receptors are a little atrophied. :lol:

What I'd like to see for starters here is what injectors one would use to accommodate a bigger engine like a 1776 or a 1914... and what other mods or "tweaking" (not that there's anything wrong with that) one should do to run them with stock FI.

JSMskater Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:29 am

raygreenwood wrote:

I work by a differnt book. Connectivity is everything. To me....preserving correct plugs has no usefulness. In that respect...until I find a fix to use D-jet plugs....I am using the drill and ring terminal method for multiple prong connectors...with L-jet style sub-pig tails....at least thats the plan. I have to get the engine finished before I move much further.


you lost me here -- what is the drill and ring terminal method... and which L-jet style pigtails? I've never seen L-jet plugs with more than 2 connectors. I suppose my question is -- What can I do to either use the D-jet connectors for the multiple connector components or what plugs will work with modification? at that point, what mods do I need to do?

I feel that -- once this harness is done -- I won't have to be pulling the plugs out all the time!! thus reducing the "cycling" method that wears them out. But if there is an easy solution then I'm willing to try it.

JSMskater Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:33 am

Tram wrote: Dang, Dude. Take some supplements. Your humor receptors are a little atrophied. :lol:

What I'd like to see for starters here is what injectors one would use to accommodate a bigger engine like a 1776 or a 1914... and what other mods or "tweaking" (not that there's anything wrong with that) one should do to run them with stock FI.

it comes with being locked up in my apt. night and day with only my physics, statistics, calculus and thermo-dynamics texts for company :lol: :roll:

I'm slowly becoming "that engineer" if you know what I mean.

I think Ray pointed out that anything bigger than a 1776 start running into breathing problems because of the internal volume of the intake parts -- essentially the runners and the throttle body are too small to let it breath and meet its full potential. For a 1776 -- my guess, and I'll certainly appreciate Ray correcting me -- would be to try stock injectors first and just bump fuel pressure to 34 PSI or something, and maybe some playing with the MAP sensor. if that didnt work, take the MAP sensor back to stock and put in the 411/porsche injectors and lower the pressure down to 30, or maybe 32.

Russ Wolfe Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:12 pm

Bleyseng wrote: So what type of MPS does a late type 3 with a "E" ecu need? number?

anyone know the inductance settings using a Wavetek meter?

There is much FI info available on my web site.
It is in kind of disarray, but it is there.




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