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Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:30 pm

I am trying to build an engine with a 36hp case but wanted to make it with a full flow oil pump. Does anyone know where I can obtain this setup? Thanks for the help.

Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:49 pm

You can call Gene Berg Ent. Their the ones that suplied the parts and did the full flow machining on my 36hp. I believe they are offering a kit for the 36hp.

Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:56 pm

Saw the 36hp sump on Berg's site, didn't see anything else.

I gather the 36hp oil pump is different than the 1600 pump.
Don't know exactly what is different.

Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:45 am

Yes Ian, stock and heavy duty oil pumps designed to fit 1200 to 1600cc VW air cooled engines fitted with the pre-1971 designed flat cam gear(can be identified by the 3 rivets or bolts holding the gear to the cam)can be installed in a 36hp engines with only minor and easily accomplished upgrades.

To install, remove the 4 6mm studs in the case holding the pump in place and replace with longer 6mm studs or bolts that compensate for the added thickness of the later pumps(The pump body outside the case is thicker to allow for longer pump gears in a variety of lengths that determines the added capacity and thus oil pumping ability of the heavier duty pumps). You can use either pumps designed for 6mm or 8mm studs since the pump is centered in the case by the pump body and the studs only hold it in place. There is no need to switch to 8mm studs even if using an 8mm pump. The only cautions are to be sure to use the 6mm hole style pump cover and outer pump cover gasket when using 6mm studs and be sure the pump body is centered symetrically in the case to align the oil passage holes before torquing the seal nuts.

There are only two negatives that can come from this refinement. First the longer gears inside later stock and heavy duty pumps require more horsepower to turn thus cutting down on available horsepower to the wheels, although this is very minor. Secondly, the early primitive baffling inside the 36hp case above the pump does little to reduce splash up the oil breather/generator tower and you can get increased oil loss. Speedwell USA once offered a baffle that fits inside the 36hp tower that will help reduce splash and is a good upgrade for any high perfomance 36hp engine. Hopefully it is still available!

The oil pumps designed for the post 72 and later 4 rivet/bolt dished cam gears will not fit since the shaft on the driven pump gear is longer to reach the dished cam gear.

We installed a heavy duty pump on our first 36hp Challenge motor but returned to the stock configuration pump to retain maximum available horsepower for our racing efforts. Every little bit of power helps when you do not have a lot to begin with.

Hope this is helpful.........

Burly

Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:08 am

another point is to use a 21mm with 6mm holes . i use this pump and have all the time when the engine is hot 1bar per 1000 RPM up to 4 bar.
also depends on how long your extra circle will be. the 17mm pump is not the best choice for a front oil cooler.

Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:31 am

pm me if any one has a baffle for sale for 36hp...i have been struggling with the exact problem of having the oil slinging up the generator stand and causing oil to wick out and under run out to the pulley on the generator and sling everywhere....i would even take a early 25hp baffle

Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:34 am

36hplandspeedracer wrote:
Hope this is helpful.........

Burly

Excellent, thank you.

Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:14 am

36hplandspeedracer wrote: Yes Ian, stock and heavy duty oil pumps designed to fit 1200 to 1600cc VW air cooled engines fitted with the pre-1971 designed flat cam gear(can be identified by the 3 rivets or bolts holding the gear to the cam)can be installed in a 36hp engines with only minor and easily accomplished upgrades.

To install, remove the 4 6mm studs in the case holding the pump in place and replace with longer 6mm studs or bolts that compensate for the added thickness of the later pumps (The pump body outside the case is thicker to allow for longer pump gears in a variety of lengths that determines the added capacity and thus oil pumping ability of the heavier duty pumps). You can use either pumps designed for 6mm or 8mm studs since the pump is centered in the case by the pump body and the studs only hold it in place. There is no need to switch to 8mm studs even if using an 8mm pump. The only cautions are to be sure to use the 6mm hole style pump cover and outer pump cover gasket when using 6mm studs and be sure the pump body is centered symetrically in the case to align the oil passage holes before torquing the seal nuts.

interesting thought, i had not considered using an 8mm stud pump on a 36hp engine before.
the only thing i would somewhat disagree with is just allowing the 8mm pump to "float" on the 6mm studs and hoping that the pump housing alignment was ok and would stay that way. as you mentioned, it is important that the oil pump driven gear is in alignment with the camshaft. i would be concerned that the pump housing could shift since the holes for the 8mm studs are larger than the 6mm studs. i know there is clamping force from the case studs and the cover, but i'd rather be safe than have my pump housing shift and it chews up the end of a cam or the pump, or both.
VW used a case insert when putting a single port cooler on a later case. it fits in the 8mm hole in the case, and takes up the space to make the 6mm studs of an early cooler fit "snugly" rather than just having the 6mm cooler studs "floating" in the 8mm case holes. i'm wondering is such a spacer could be used in this type of oil pump application. you'd really only need two, at opposite ends of the pump. i don't think having spacers in all 4 pump holes would be necessary.
i can't find the part number right now, but i have several of these original VW spacers, they are #41 in this pic.
http://www.kuebel-klub.de/skripte/bildkatalog.php?page=2

Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:45 pm

replace te 6mm studs with the 6mm/8mm studs used for oil cooler conversions.

(but its really the case that locates the oil pump, thats why you need oil pump puller tool- the case holds it tight.)

Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:52 pm

Caution! Factory 8mm studs are on different centers!!!

Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:59 am

Jacks wrote: Caution! Factory 8mm studs are on different centers!!!

another interesting point. so i guess i would like to see pics of an 8mm pump installed on a 36hp engine. Burly, can you provide that info?

Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:43 am

Just to let you know, here is what I am trying to accomplish and certainly welcome your advice. I am building a period correct engine for my 1957 Oval. I am working with a 36hp case, Porsche cam, Porsche Pre A crank, pistons, jugs, and heads. I am using Solex 32 PBIC's and the correct Knecht air breathers. I will be using the full flow Fram Oil Filter located on the fan shroud. I have the engine tapped and complete except for the oil pump. This combination will get me from 1200CC to about 1485CC(74X80). Right now I am also trying to make the Porsche/VW engine tin to fit together. Pictures will follow.
Dan

Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:03 am

Shouldn't be a problem using a common full flow cover on a 36hp pump.

Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:08 pm

Sorry, I do not have any installed photos. Bville Tom might and I will try and talk with him tonight.

Burly

Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:21 pm

Spoke withBville Tom this evening and he confirmed the later model pumps fit without any special considerations other than those mentioned in my original reply.

The rear body of the pump fits so snuggly into the case, the only alignment concern is making sure the oil passages align and that the bottom case bolt is retorqued after pump installation. He just wrapped two studs(as suggested in an earlier reply) with masking tape to help with the alignment procedure. He also chamferred the case oil port hole slightly to smooth out the oil flow.

He has installed pumps up to 30mm in a 36 but found they provide too much volume and pressure resulting in uneccessary oil leaks. He also agrees with the earlier comments that a 21mm seems to be about ideal ( with minimum horsepower loss).

Since his 36hp motors are run at 6000 plus rpms for sustained distances of one mile(36hp Challenge racing), he has also modified a later 1600cc oil sump to fit the 36, dropping the oil level away from the cam and crank, not only improving available horsepower but reducing splash up into the generator tower. He indicated he will also return to a full flow oil pump cover(as he has in the past) to improve oil flow for better engine life.

Thanx Tom for sharing your experiences on this subject.

Burly

Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:54 pm

jes is correckt, the centers of 8mm studs ar not the same as 6mm studs for the oilpumps..

i have built my first engine, with useing 8mm studs, but i have to modifie my oilpump to get it mounted...

Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:03 pm

If you use 6mm studs or bolts, no modifications will be required!

Burly

Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:18 pm

36hplandspeedracer wrote: If you use 6mm studs or bolts, no modifications will be required!

Burly

sure, that was the result of my experience after the first conversion also :D :!: :idea:

Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:38 pm

vdubdan wrote: Just to let you know, here is what I am trying to accomplish and certainly welcome your advice. I am building a period correct engine for my 1957 Oval. I am working with a 36hp case, Porsche cam, Porsche Pre A crank, pistons, jugs, and heads. I am using Solex 32 PBIC's and the correct Knecht air breathers. I will be using the full flow Fram Oil Filter located on the fan shroud. I have the engine tapped and complete except for the oil pump. This combination will get me from 1200CC to about 1485CC(74X80). Right now I am also trying to make the Porsche/VW engine tin to fit together. Pictures will follow.
Dan

the fram oil filter is not a full flow it is considered a bypass system and will not give you a same result as coming out of the pump and filtering rather than the oil coming from the oil pressure switch.once you install the full flow plate on the oil pump you have lost your period correct theory

Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:17 am

This is a pic of Justins land speed engine that is full flow'd,, http://blackline57.com

Works great. But the fittings are not the same as a 1600, they are smaller at the return line..