TheSamba.com :: View topic - '50 running gear value / 383 dist. wire or spring clips?

Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:18 am

Here's a quick side shot of the heater boxes. Best I could get right now.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:27 am

Those are the '58-'61 style. One has the screws, the other has the bent over tabs and is probably an LMB replacement box (OE supplier to VW). You could find the '51-'57 style pretty easily to make it "more" correct, but still would not be the correct boxes. The March '51 and earlier ones are like T Rex bones to find.

As stated in my engine and "spycam" thread, you can make a reasonable mock up of them out of 356 boxes, but you still need the 2 flap shoe boxes then which are also very, very hard to find.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:33 am

Thanks for that info.

Here's more of the top end stuff.

Obvious replacement cap on the dist.

Looking up "Bosch Date Codes" all I could find were threads on 40's and 60's parts. Nothing 50's

Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:38 am

mr. warehouse wrote: Thanks for that info.
Looking up "Bosch Date Codes" all I could find were threads on 40's and 60's parts. Nothing 50's

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279505

Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:54 am

pm sent 8)

Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:32 pm

Looks like a nice motor; it's a shame it's going to get separated from its car.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:02 pm

johnshenry wrote: Brezelwerks wrote: ..... Its nice to see the finer details as the screw manifold clamps, correct carb, oil breather, and baling wire clips on the 383 (but you'd have to pull the 383 to check if its correct without the O ring on the shaft = more money).......

Bailing wire clips are not correct on a '50 engine. '50-'52 owners manuals show solid band clips in several photos with other 25hp details correct. Wire clips do not show up in the owners manual until '54.

Also, I have seen no evidence to VW logo stamped mufflers used in production. The engine assembly line pics show unlogo'ed mufflers as do some manuals. They also all have welded on tailpipes. I believe that VW logo'ed mufflers were replacement parts only, and all had clamp on tailpipes. Anyone have evidence to the contrary??

Baling clips are shown in several places both illustrated in detail and photographed in various 25hp engine shots in my Purvis tech manual dated 1960:

Band clips are illustrated in the 50' VW spare parts book too, but I tend to believe both styles were correct beyond just what tech/owners manuals appear to picture. My preference is for baling wires, as they are much rarer, were only used for a short time, have never been reproduced, and besides being cooler they just look way more vintage than band spring clips that were used for everything else.

About the same goes for mufflers, at least with a VW stamp on each side of the muffler you know its an original VW muffler, and not one of a few reproductions that were made. A VW stamped muffler would also add much more value than a non-stamped reproduction. I've also never seen a welded on tip version with the flanges on any car ever at a show, I guess it could be somewhat easily done though if someone actually cared enough, but I doubt its a feature anyone you could ever fetch a premium on when selling the engine with one, since you couldn't prove it an original, especially if it was mint.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:20 pm

52brezelfenster wrote: What was the difference in application between skinny vs fat star coils? Was one a dealer replacement, or is one early vs late?

Thin = VW
Thick = Porsche

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...mp;start=0

Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:34 pm

Suboval wrote: 52brezelfenster wrote: What was the difference in application between skinny vs fat star coils? Was one a dealer replacement, or is one early vs late?

Thin = VW
Thick = Porsche

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...mp;start=0

In that case you gain horsepower and $$$ points with the fatty, right?

Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:21 pm

Brezelwerks wrote: ......

Band clips are illustrated in the 50' VW spare parts book too, but I tend to believe both styles were correct beyond just what tech/owners manuals appear to picture. My preference is for baling wires, as they are much rarer, were only used for a short time, have never been reproduced, and besides being cooler they just look way more vintage than band spring clips that were used for everything else. .........

Perhaps then if "cooler" sells, Greg should snap a clear yellow dist cap on there and add a chrome fan shroud. :roll:

I for one believe that the highest dollar engines are the ones with ALL the correct parts, not just those that can be seen with the engine lid up or the ones that "look vintage".

My Sept '50 manual also shows band clips. Since the first VW published literature that shows wire clips that I have seen is the '54 owners manual I can only conclude that they were used on ovals, not splits.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:44 pm

johnshenry wrote: Brezelwerks wrote: ......

Band clips are illustrated in the 50' VW spare parts book too, but I tend to believe both styles were correct beyond just what tech/owners manuals appear to picture. My preference is for baling wires, as they are much rarer, were only used for a short time, have never been reproduced, and besides being cooler they just look way more vintage than band spring clips that were used for everything else. .........

Perhaps then if "cooler" sells, Greg should snap a clear yellow dist cap on there and add a chrome fan shroud. :roll:

I for one believe that the highest dollar engines are the ones with ALL the correct parts, not just those that can be seen with the engine lid up or the ones that "look vintage".

My Sept '50 manual also shows band clips. Since the first VW published literature that shows wire clips that I have seen is the '54 owners manual I can only conclude that they were used on ovals, not splits.

You are of course entitled to your conclusion, but it doesnt' mean you are right either, at least until you can provide documented evidence from Bosch/VW and/or you can convincingly refute the dozens of images shown in the 50 year old Purvis tech manual. So until then I don't view using the baling wire clips as some sort of correctness violation, nor would either clip choice affect the value of the engine period, so for me all things being equal, coolness factor just prevails.

If others are inclined to go with band clips at least avoid (or rework) the shiny new plated versions which wouldn't be correct as the originals were likely a spring steel and they had a dark charcoal like oxide finish, or perhaps thats the patina they developed over 50+ years.

The point I am making here was in response to the "value of this engine" question, and the reality is once you get past the muffler (which is questionable as most split use repro mufflers), correct lower tin is a "nice to have" detail, but engine prices nowhere scale up for engines with correct lower tin proportionally the way they do with "must have" engine bay parts, not at least until there is a mature concours scene with vintage VWs. You don't have to like it if you are a lower tin guy, thats just how it is, supply and demand. Hell most lower tin on splits aren't even operational or even hooked up, so these often overlooked lower tin parts just aren't going to fetch a premium.

In a way I see the 25hp engine as it sits in the bay of a VW as a form of sculpture art. There is just simple beauty in its size relative to the space it sits in front and center, with its triangular and symmetrical shape, the shapes, sizes, and colors of its components, etc. Its a big part of why we value its correctness factor when we are looking at this distinct area of the car, and because we can view it so well presented, we value more of what we can see over what we usually can't. Therefore engine bay parts are just going to fetch a premium, especially as each owner seeks to complete his/her own sculpture.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:04 pm

Brezelwerks wrote:

In a way I see the 25hp engine as it sits in the bay of a VW as a form of sculpture art. There is just simple beauty in its size relative to the space it sits in front and center, with its triangular and symmetrical shape, the shapes, sizes, and colors of its components, etc. Its a big part of why we value its correctness factor when we are looking at this distinct area of the car, and because we can view it so well presented, we value more of what we can see over what we usually can't. Therefore engine bay parts are just going to fetch a premium, especially as each owner seeks to complete his/her own sculpture.

agreed. this is why i see it as such a shame to be itemizing out the value of a nice complete engine.

the old line of "if it get's more cars on the road" continues to fail. this thread was started so that someone who makes his living off of VWs can maximize the amount of money he is trying to make. let's get real here.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:41 pm

Brezelwerks wrote: ......

You are of course entitled to your conclusion, but it doesnt' mean you are right either, at least until you can provide documented evidence from Bosch/VW and/or you can convincingly refute the dozens of images shown in the 50 year old Purvis tech manual. .....

I already provided documented evidence, '50-'52 Split owners manuals, Sept '50 service manual, and Sept '50 Part Manual. ALL show band clip and NOT wire clips. That is documented, date coded, VW evidence.

The Purvis book, which I have two copies of right here in front of me (1957 and 1963) , shows only one picture of a non vacuum advance distributor with wire clips, not "dozens". And in that picture, you can see the carb support is a bar, note a tube indicating it is probably a non original engine with a mix of parts (it seems to show a jacketed K also). It shows other pictures of centrifugal advance dists with band clamps. Since the book has none of the common photos found in VW literature, it can be presumed that the publishers were using whatever cars they had access to. The Purvis book is not a VW book.

Until you can provide documented evidence from Bosch/VW and/or you can convincingly refute the dozens of images shown in the VW supplied documentation, there is no basis for asserting that wire clips were used on splits.

As for the lower tin, the fact that 2 flap shoeboxes and '51 and earlier sell instantly behind the radar for upwards of $400-$500 pr in very rough condition is enough evidence that people do care about them and there is a high demand. It is usually the people who don't have those parts on their split that claim that the parts are insignificant. The fact is that the the educated buyer will always place a premium on correct parts, especially in the early cars.

As for the the engine as an art sculpture, I would venture to say that most people dropping $5k-$9k on an engine are looking for a vintage correct piece of machinery that can propel their split down the road as it was originally. Not an art sculpture.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:11 pm

looks like we have a tie here folks........round three coming up :shock:

Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:58 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not a 36 hp crank pulley?

Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:02 pm

i still smell burning rubber (slammed on earlies) and kool kustoms,might even have upside down emblems.......extra "kool"

Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:30 pm

thom wrote: Looks like a nice motor; it's a shame it's going to get separated from its car.

Engine is an Oct. '50 Car is a Jan '50 They definitely weren't together from the start.

I can say I've learned more in the past 2 days about 25hp engines then I have in the past 20 years.

Seems to me the bottom line is the engine is good enough for a driver, but not for a full blown resto / concourse car.

A ballpark value has been set, that's what I was asked to find out. As I stated earlier, it's not out of the car, OR for sale. Trans / beam / brakes seem to be trivial in comparison.

If the correct parts are needed in the future I'm sure John and Gary will both be called upon again for their input.

Thanks again to both of you!

Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:09 pm

I don't know what is right or wrong for the clips on 383 distributors but I took a look through some older 383 distributor ads on the site and I'd estimate the distribution as 1/3 wire clips and 2/3rds band clips.

Searching my own past photos of parts I sold, it looks like I have owned 2 383 distributors in the past and both had spring clips. I don't know the distributor dates. Both are the style with no shaft seal.

Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:29 pm

Everett's post reminded me of these I looked up today.

The gen is coded 6N (June 57)
The reg is coded 1H (Jan 52)

The dist. all I could find was a 1, but I wasn't really sure where to look. I did have the "later" o-ring though....

Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:50 am

mr. warehouse wrote: thom wrote: Looks like a nice motor; it's a shame it's going to get separated from its car.

A ballpark value has been set, that's what I was asked to find out. As I stated earlier, it's not out of the car, OR for sale.

if it's not out of the car or for sale then i am assuming that you are asking what the value is for insurance purposes.