TheSamba.com :: View topic - Who has driven BOTH a Bostig van AND a 2.5 Subaru van?

Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:23 am

I'm getting ready to plop down some money and had been thinking a 2.5 subaru was gonna be IT. Recently though, the Bostig has been appealing to me a lot.

I'm curious what the seat of the pants feel is like between the two motors. I have a hunch that the 2.5 is a fair bit torquier at low-mid RPM (3,500 and under) and that the zetec is probably a more free-runner at mid-higher RPM. Maybe the difference translates into a significantly more enjoyable van for everyday driving, maybe it doesn't. I sure can't know if i haven't driven each.

So, who has some seat time in both vans (sorry, don't care much about 2.2 subaru experience, since i'm not considering that option) and drove them in a short enough time span that you could reliably say you have a feeling for the differences?

Also, anyone have a dyno chart comparing the two?

I need to make my decision SOON because this Bostig install group closes on the 10th and kits don't ship until december. I Definitely want to do the work this winter, so if i miss this group, i'll be finishing the work later in 2010 than i want to!

Lastly, i live in Bend, OR. Anybody nearby (Willamette valley?) wanna let me drive their 2.5 or Zetec powered van?

PS- I appreciate everyones feedback, but for the sake of the thread I'd really like to try to restrict comments to a fairly concise topic.

Please refrain from debating all the pros and cons of all the conversion options. For this thread I'd really like to limit it to discussion of seat-of-the-pants feel while driving. Not comparing technical pros/cons. Please do not comment if you haven't driven both, or at least one of the conversions mentioned.

I don't mean to be rude, but please share other thoughts in one of the many other conversion threads. Thanks!

Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:37 am

You should post this question on Yahoo's SubaruVanagon group as well. IIRC, someone on that forum reviewed the differences of the two engines.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/subaruvanagon

I realized you don't want to hear it, but I wouldn't count out the EJ22. It is a very solid, more bulletproof option than the EJ25. I have a '91 EJ22 in my '89 Westy and go over 12,000 foot mountain passes doing 60+ mph.

Though I must admit, those Bostig guys are making an amazing, very complete conversion. I would love to drive one of them Z-tec vans.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:25 am

It's just my opinion as I havent driven a zetec but I think it's simliar to the 2.2 suby. Maybe a bit less torque and more revs.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:49 am

markmc90 wrote: It's just my opinion as I havent driven a zetec but I think it's simliar to the 2.2 suby. Maybe a bit less torque and more revs.

I swapped an EJ22 out of my syncro adventurewagen for a bostig zetec. The above statement well summarizes the difference.

To the original poster - the 2.5 will give you more torque/power out of the box. But once the turbo is available, I anticipate the zetec will be hard to beat.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:21 am

> anyone have a dyno chart comparing the two?

great question, I dont have that info, but

the motor spec for a 2.2 subie is something like 137hp and 137ft lbs, look it up to be sure Im not mistaken

similarly for the 2.5 subie, the power spec is about 165hp and torque

then for the bostig, I believe the number is 130hp and ftlbs or thereabouts

therefore the ONLY reason to go bostig, is IF and WHEN you can afford and obtain Turbo!

Turbo imho, is the ONLY way to deal with altitude.

Sure I can go 65mph in my 2.2 Subaru at 10,000 feet, but its at 5200 rpm, not a relaxing experience, more of a white knuckle kind of feeling

when debating a conversion the questions I ask are
1. does it have turbo
2. if it has no turbo, does it have at least 180ft/lbs of torque, such as the SVX

Until the bostig turbo materializes, the turbo options include a turbo subaru (why dont more people do these?), the 1.8T or a 1.9TDi

Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:38 am

I have driven both you should think about weight the less you van weighs the less power you need. I tought the zetac was great in a 7 passnger
the 2.5 was very good in a westy syncro.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:53 am

i drove a vw california t3 with a 2.5 legacy engine in the uk converted by small car and it was a complete letdown the performance was nothing special, compared with a vw vr6 conversion it was terrible

Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:07 pm

"EJ22... is a very solid, more bulletproof option than the EJ25."

- does this refer to the head gasket issue?

many of the 2.5L Sube's have already had that done.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:06 pm

Jon_slider wrote:
therefore the ONLY reason to go bostig, is IF and WHEN you can afford and obtain Turbo!

That is a bit of a dogmatic statement.

There are lot's of criteria to look at besides whether or not you WANT a turbo on your rig. There is also ease of conversion to think about, especially if you are wanting to do the work yourself. The guys at Bostig have it down pretty good.

There is also issues of the availability of low mileage engines. Super low mileage engines are plentiful at a song if you go with the Zetec. They are cheap enough that you could buy a couple and keep them in your garage. turn the crank every few months to keep the valve springs from going bad, and you won't have to worry about an engine for pretty much the rest of your life. At about 500 bucks, I would swap another engine in before I fret much at all with any kind of major repair.

Those are just a couple of points, there are endless more. Someone has to look at all the criteria if they are contemplating a swap. How much HP and torque you want or need is certainly one thing to look at, but by no means is it the ONLY thing. A person has to educate themself, and decide what their personal needs and preferences are.

My nephew put a Bostig conversion in his full westy camper, and it runs like a dream. Sure there are plenty of engines that do more horsepower and have more torque. You could put a jet engine in there for that matter, if you have the time and money. ;) There are different diesel options as well.

I've been buying and driving VW's since the 70's. My dad was buying and driving VW's before I was born. I like to think that I had a part in turning my nephew on to VW's, and he is ever bit as into them as I ever have been. After driving his Westy around with the Bostig, I knew I really wanted one. I bought a van recently from a Samba member. The van had been rolled, and it had the Bostig kit in it. I've got the engine pulled and I'm now waiting until I get the money to get myself a worthy Westy that needs a heart transplant.

If the turbo kit becomes available in the future I may or may not consider sticking one on it. I can attest to the fact that the Zetec really has plenty of power for me.

-t

Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:46 pm

Taylor L wrote: Jon_slider wrote:
therefore the ONLY reason to go bostig, is IF and WHEN you can afford and obtain Turbo!

That is a bit of a dogmatic statement.

There are lot's of criteria to look at besides whether or not you WANT a turbo on your rig. There is also ease of conversion to think about, especially if you are wanting to do the work yourself. The guys at Bostig have it down pretty good.

There is also issues of the availability of low mileage engines. Super low mileage engines are plentiful at a song if you go with the Zetec. They are cheap enough that you could buy a couple and keep them in your garage. turn the crank every few months to keep the valve springs from going bad, and you won't have to worry about an engine for pretty much the rest of your life. At about 500 bucks, I would swap another engine in before I fret much at all with any kind of major repair.

Those are just a couple of points, there are endless more. Someone has to look at all the criteria if they are contemplating a swap. How much HP and torque you want or need is certainly one thing to look at, but by no means is it the ONLY thing. A person has to educate themself, and decide what their personal needs and preferences are.

My nephew put a Bostig conversion in his full westy camper, and it runs like a dream. Sure there are plenty of engines that do more horsepower and have more torque. You could put a jet engine in there for that matter, if you have the time and money. ;) There are different diesel options as well.

I've been buying and driving VW's since the 70's. My dad was buying and driving VW's before I was born. I like to think that I had a part in turning my nephew on to VW's, and he is ever bit as into them as I ever have been. After driving his Westy around with the Bostig, I knew I really wanted one. I bought a van recently from a Samba member. The van had been rolled, and it had the Bostig kit in it. I've got the engine pulled and I'm now waiting until I get the money to get myself a worthy Westy that needs a heart transplant.

If the turbo kit becomes available in the future I may or may not consider sticking one on it. I can attest to the fact that the Zetec really has plenty of power for me.

-t

That would be nice to buy a van with a blown transmission but a zetec engine. Just make the transplant, sell the empty van, and you got a conversion on the cheap.

Personally, If I had to choose between a 2.5 subaru and a zetec, I'd go zetec. I've never driven either, just from what I've read. I'd go 2.2 subaru above all else though.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:23 pm

I second Rhino’s comment on the 2.2l Soob….

I was very fortunate in my conversion. I found a 2.2l Subaru engine with zero miles. Thus, it was an easy engine choice for me. The engine was one of the first generation 2.2l from the early ‘90s and had been sitting in an engine builder’s garage for years. It was purchased from Subaru for a sprint car project that never materialized. Now it is home in an ’84 Westy. I guess I have 20k miles on it now. No issues.

The 2.2l is a just a great engine - OBD 1 and non-interference. I think it has more than enough power for my non-synchro Westy.

I had the original Transmission gone through and refurbished during the conversion project. Only thing I would do different, looking back on it now, would be to add taller gears (fourth gear at least for highway driving). This would cut down on RPMs at highway cruising speed and increase the fuel mileage…. I had thought about doing this at the time of the conversion and decided not to put in a taller gear. I did not want to have to downshift to third gear on hills. My experience is the 2.2l with the stock transmission will eat up any of the highway hills in KY with no strain. May be different out west….

I think I would trade an occasional down shift on road trips for better ‘week in-week out’ fuel mileage. The Westy is my daily driver.

All the best to you in your engine search and Vanagon conversion. For me it was a lot of fun and a great learning experience.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:52 pm

Check out this video.. this guy must be in my hood. Want to shake his hand.. This is the first drive but he has about 15 minutes of Zetec conversion footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-ch7CnzmPI

Awesome

K

Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:03 pm

I recently drove both. Brian from Small Car let me test drive his Westy with a 2.5 Turbo Subaru Syncro with heavier springs/shocks, and 16" wheels. Wow, what a trip. And then Eion from the Tec Shop let me drive a Zetec in a Vanagon. Both had more power than my 2.1 WBX... when the turbo kicks in, there's no competition.

Otherwise, they both felt more than adequate for much of my needs. Both handled hill climbing with aplomb. Acceleration was pretty decent with both.

As Taylor said more eloquently than I could, there's a lot more to it than just comparing HP. I decided to go with the Zetec, and the main reason is for minimizing the hassles further down the road. There's really no comparison between Subie and Zetec conversions for ease of maintenance once it's installed. If that's not an issue for you, then the Subie stays in the running. If it is, then your choice just got made really easy for you. :)

Stephen

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Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:53 pm

can you explain more re "ease of maintenance" ??

Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:16 pm

i think i've driven just about all of the available conversions except a tdi and a 1.8 turbo, so i've been around. to me, the tiico is the worst, at the bottom of the list. the second WORST is the zetec, i didnt like it at all. this is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, but i dont care for it at all. i think i like the 2.2 BETTER than the 2.5, and i like the svx more. i like the 2.2 better because of overall its easier to install, its cheaper, the motors are everywhere, they last forever, and have plenty of power, even for syncros. the 2.5 is alittle faster, but with extra cost, and to me its not worth it. if you want MORE power, get an svx. NOW, if you plan on going the zetec turbo route, then i cant help you there. just about any day a turbo is going to be faster than a normally aspirated car, so that takes the cake, but is that what you want? for me, the best easy to drive, minimal extra modifications (no bigger tires/gearing change/ brakes), great improvement, easy to install, not as easy as a zetec but easy, affordable, ease of finding parts(if neccesary), and TONS of documented help as its been done to death by tons of vanagon people, as well as others(other vws, sandrails, airplanes, etc). SO, i know you said NO to the 2.2, but my vote goes to that. then the svx, then the 2.5, then the zetec, and i classify the tdi and 1.8t in their own group, as i've not drivven them.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:18 pm

I have driven both.
To be more specific, I have driven and or owned vans with these engines:

stock 2.1 wbx
2.2 wbx
Go Westy 2.4 wbx

Bostig version 1
Bostig version 2

Subaru 2.2
Subaru 2.5
Subaru 3.3

Tiico, don't laugh!

VW 1.8T

OK,
so here is my answer to the original question.
The biggest difference to me was that the Bostig package was complete, well thought out and very good looking and performing in the van.
I agree with Jon Slider and feel that the Bostig package with a turbo charger my be the top of my list for performance, within reason, efficancy, ablity to located parts all over the world and most of all tech support from Jim himself. I believe emmisions has been an issue for some with the Bostig, don't quote me on that, just what I have heard.

Not to say that the Subaru 2.5 is not good, just the swap is more complex IMHO and there are various vendors to consider. With that said, I am a Small Car fan for my SVX conversions, but too each his own. The fact that the most affordable swap, Subaru wise, means that you are dealing with numerous fabricators and vendors is a major minus to me. This can become a real PITA if you let it. Rocky Mtn. Westy does Subaru packages as well, but I am a very visual person and an updated web site, at a minimum, is needed for me to do my homework. I have only heard good things about RMW, but have no experience, other than a few emails and phone calls to them.

It really depends upon what type of Vanagon owner you are....looking for a turnkey kit, willing to fabricate on your own or looking for the most cost effective conversion.

Either way you are making a good choice to repower a Vanagon and you will be happy you did.

Hope this helps.

dylan

Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:05 pm

Good stuff Dylan. But how does the Zetec conversion drive in comparison to the Subie 2.5? Driveability is a big issue for me, and that has a lot to do with torque. Low end torque. The Subie's seem to have a lot of it. I've never driven a Zetec conversion so I'm curious. thanks, Joel

Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:18 pm

Tulsa, can you explain in some detail, what exactly it was about the zetec that you didn't like?

Also, to refresh, i'm interested in seat of the pants difference in the feel of driving a zetec van vs. subaru van.

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone, it's helpful. It's gonna be a tough decision and i have to make it by next friday if i want a bostig.

I kind of feel bad about starting yet another thread about engine conversions, but by keeping the speculation to a minimum, and the reporting of actual experience from actual owners, we're creating a valuable thread.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:13 pm

Here comes a couple dyno charts:
First, zetec,
102 ft/lbs @ 2,100 rpm
112 ft/lbs @2500 rpm
maintains 110 ft/lbs to about 5000 rpm

na suby 2.5

106 ft/lbs @2000 rpm
116 ft/lbs @2500 rpm
hits about 122 ft/lbs, and 110 ft/lbs @5000 rpm.

Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:14 pm

Don't do this. It's a big investment. You need to drive both, ideally in the same config as your van: i.e ex: 2wd/camper/manual. With similar tires (diameter). And in your own "habitat".

Before making such decision. It's sad to just base your decision on someone else perception. As you could read, it does not seem to a very large consensus. (my guess is that people just stand on their own choice to justify their own choice).

I would think you would be happy with both. Both are an improvement.

But for that kind of money, I would want to "try them on".

JP