TheSamba.com :: View topic - Removing those unnecessary torsion leaves

Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:29 am

Fellas;

A good friend has provided me a dated article containing both instructions and photos on how to remove (read: trim) some of the torsion leaves for that REAL soft ride. It all stems from the gross weight disparity between the Beetle and the buggy curb/front end weights. Has anyone done this?

I would have inserted the scanned .pdf document, but I do not see the ability to upload it. Any ideas?

Iverson

Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:32 pm

I might be wrong, but I don't see how that is possible. The torsion leaf pack is what the control arms are attached to. If you remove any one of them, it would alter the arm mounting. If you want a lower or softer ride, get torsion adjusters (the ones that weld into the beam). Then you can adjust the preload of the front end. If there is a way to remove leaves, I'd like to know!

-Nick-

Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:41 pm

yes you can remove the pack on top or bottom replace with a threaded rod!! but I think everyone has come to the conclusion adjusters are better!!! Airkewld replace both the upper and lower and use a air shock check out there site for mor info

Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:28 pm

bob cook wrote: yes you can remove the pack on top or bottom replace with a threaded rod!! but I think everyone has come to the conclusion adjusters are better!!! Airkewld replace both the upper and lower and use a air shock check out there site for mor info

I am no torsion expert, but I have adjusters on my front end. They will lower or raise the front end but not effect the stiffness or softness of the ride. bear in mind, I have a T buggy with no wieght up front at all. I will be trying either removing a few bars from both top and bottom or remove all from one and replace it with a threaded rod

Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:54 pm

Hank22 wrote: bob cook wrote: yes you can remove the pack on top or bottom replace with a threaded rod!! but I think everyone has come to the conclusion adjusters are better!!! Airkewld replace both the upper and lower and use a air shock check out there site for mor info

I am no torsion expert, but I have adjusters on my front end. They will lower or raise the front end but not effect the stiffness or softness of the ride. bear in mind, I have a T buggy with no wieght up front at all. I will be trying either removing a few bars from both top and bottom or remove all from one and replace it with a threaded rod

I hav heard of people removing a leap or 2 to lower a stock beam also seen where some had been cut to render them pretty uch usless, but I still think it is safer and wiser to run adjusters

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:03 pm

Well I don't plan on doing anything until I'm road worthy.

Considering how long it has taken me to get this far and my present age, I'll probably forget by the time I am road worthy :wink:

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:21 pm

Years ago removing parts of the leaves was a way to drop the front end and soften the ride in VW's. You would cut the ends and the very center out off of a couple of leaves in each pack. Then tack weld the ends and center parts back with the rest of the stack so that the grub screws still anchored the front end together. The result was fewer leaves to twist in the bunch, but the correct number at the connecting spots. Bad part was that on a full weight bug the fewer leaves doing the work would weaken and take a set lower than when you first did the dirty deed. :wink:

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:33 pm

Hank22 wrote: bob cook wrote: yes you can remove the pack on top or bottom replace with a threaded rod!! but I think everyone has come to the conclusion adjusters are better!!! Airkewld replace both the upper and lower and use a air shock check out there site for mor info

I am no torsion expert, but I have adjusters on my front end. They will lower or raise the front end but not effect the stiffness or softness of the ride. bear in mind, I have a T buggy with no wieght up front at all. I will be trying either removing a few bars from both top and bottom or remove all from one and replace it with a threaded rod

If you remove the tension on the top adjuster until the ride height just begins to drop, you will have a softer ride and maintain the ride height. It will also give you somewhat progressive suspension for the bigger bumps the top leaves will come into play.

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:40 pm

Quote :If you remove the tension on the top adjuster until the ride height just begins to drop, you will have a softer ride and maintain the ride height. It will also give you somewhat progressive suspension for the bigger bumps the top leaves will come into play.

Thanks lostinbaja, I'll give that a try first.

My appologies to Rick for the Hijack, but it seams these responses will help him also.
Hank[/quote]

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:43 pm

There have been hundreds of ways investigated over the years for modifying the front torsions to soften the ride on a buggy...

One method has been to cut a top & bottom torsion leaf in the pack so that you keep the outer 8-10" on each side & an 8-10" section in middle, then bond the segments to the adjacent leaf.

bnc

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:43 pm

Guys.....where have you all been?

Removing leaves from the torsion bars to de-rate the front suspension to account for the lighter buggy bodyshell has been something buggy builders have done since the late 1960's!!

Removal of leaves isn't quite right because what you are actually doing is taking the top and bottom leaves of each set and cutting them leaving a 3-4inch piece at each end and the centre. These pieces are tack welded to the other leaves and act as locating plates so when the grub screws in the front beam are tightened then they secure in the way that VW originally intended....effectively the remaining parts of the leaves act as packing pieces of locating plates. What you have then is a set of torsion bars comprising of fewer leaves and therefore is softer.

That's the theory anyway.........in reality though most of us are dealing with a set of torsion bars that are at least 40 years old and probably a bit tired before your modifications. Therefore the practice is not a finite science. Consider when the old hot rodders and low riders used to load up there cars and then heat their coil springs........as the springs cooled they settled shorter and therefore the car was slammed but an even ride was not guaranteed........nor is removing leaves from your torsion bars unless you're starting with a brand new set.

As somebody already has said, adjusters do NOT soften the ride or help the buggy builder de-rate their suspension....so that's not the answer.

The 21st Century answer is to fit a tie-bar kit and adjustable coilovers. For a lightweight buggy you're looking for 100-150lb springs up front and as the coilovers are adjustable you can alter both the spring rate and the ride height........a lot more scientific than removing leaves from a tired set of torsion bars.

Check out the following link for the tie-bar kit:

http://www.red9design.co.uk/type1.htm

Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:38 pm

I just remove the outer leaves (all the small ones) and then tweak adjusters.... What ever it take to get torsion preload correct for ride height and rate....

ANYTHING is fair game as long as it gets you there........

Dale

Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:42 pm

I've just replaced the upper spring set with a rod and add some coilover shock absorber.

It allows good weight transfer on acceleration and a better overall handling. 8)

Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:59 pm

For a street buggy you can remove as many leaves as you want for a softer ride. The main thing is for safety you have to cut a small piece and install on each side for each leaf you remove. That way you still have the pressure to lock in the spindles, but have a softer ride. The down side is tires will rub fenderwells on speed bumps.

Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:41 am

This is exactly what was reported in this article.

didget69 wrote: There have been hundreds of ways investigated over the years for modifying the front torsions to soften the ride on a buggy...

One method has been to cut a top & bottom torsion leaf in the pack so that you keep the outer 8-10" on each side & an 8-10" section in middle, then bond the segments to the adjacent leaf.

bnc

Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:21 am

Just curious, someone suggested using 100-150lb Coil overs, what is the factory spring rate? Anyone got a rule of thumb for what each torsion leaf adds to the collection in terms of lbs of spring rate? For that matter is there a desirable weight to spring rate ratio to shoot for? I know ride and handling are left to personal preference most times, are there any good methods and or tactics short of trial and error?

I can see myself jumping on the front bumper to watch the suspension respond and besides looking like a fool still not really getting a good sense of it. :)

Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:36 am

What threaded rod is everyone using? Is it something you pick up at a hardware store? How strong is the rod? It seems like a pretty important piece to take any chances with.

Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:01 am

john morris wrote: What threaded rod is everyone using? Is it something you pick up at a hardware store? How strong is the rod? It seems like a pretty important piece to take any chances with.

http://www.airkewld.com/parts/proddetail.php?prod=ARK-4200

Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:39 am

gr8cobbler wrote: Just curious, someone suggested using 100-150lb Coil overs, what is the factory spring rate? Anyone got a rule of thumb for what each torsion leaf adds to the collection in terms of lbs of spring rate? For that matter is there a desirable weight to spring rate ratio to shoot for? I know ride and handling are left to personal preference most times, are there any good methods and or tactics short of trial and error?

I can see myself jumping on the front bumper to watch the suspension respond and besides looking like a fool still not really getting a good sense of it. :)

I was quoted it as being 250lbs equivalent on a stock bug. I've gone for 100lbs on my road going kit car and they seem okay to me but I am lighter than many buggies as my fuel tank is not located up front...hence the suggestion of 100-150's.

Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:53 am

Rick Iverson wrote: This is exactly what was reported in this article.

........and this one :wink:

PELLAND wrote: Guys.....where have you all been?

Removing leaves from the torsion bars to de-rate the front suspension to account for the lighter buggy bodyshell has been something buggy builders have done since the late 1960's!!

Removal of leaves isn't quite right because what you are actually doing is taking the top and bottom leaves of each set and cutting them leaving a 3-4inch piece at each end and the centre. These pieces are tack welded to the other leaves and act as locating plates so when the grub screws in the front beam are tightened then they secure in the way that VW originally intended....effectively the remaining parts of the leaves act as packing pieces of locating plates. What you have then is a set of torsion bars comprising of fewer leaves and therefore is softer.

That's the theory anyway.........in reality though most of us are dealing with a set of torsion bars that are at least 40 years old and probably a bit tired before your modifications. Therefore the practice is not a finite science. Consider when the old hot rodders and low riders used to load up there cars and then heat their coil springs........as the springs cooled they settled shorter and therefore the car was slammed but an even ride was not guaranteed........nor is removing leaves from your torsion bars unless you're starting with a brand new set.

As somebody already has said, adjusters do NOT soften the ride or help the buggy builder de-rate their suspension....so that's not the answer.

The 21st Century answer is to fit a tie-bar kit and adjustable coilovers. For a lightweight buggy you're looking for 100-150lb springs up front and as the coilovers are adjustable you can alter both the spring rate and the ride height........a lot more scientific than removing leaves from a tired set of torsion bars.

Check out the following link for the tie-bar kit:

http://www.red9design.co.uk/type1.htm