TheSamba.com :: View topic - Should I replace Solex PICT 30-2 on 69 Beetle?

Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:12 pm

I recently bought a stock Savanna Beige 1969 Beetle which belonged to an elderly couple. The little bug had been sitting in a back yard in Southern CA since 1991. I am the second owner. I replaced the muffler, battery, tires, bumpers, brake shoes, brake hoses, front wheel bearings, wheel cylinders, turn signal switch, and fixed the horn wiring. I replaced corroded fuses (and cleaned their respective terminals) and even got the cute little window washer bottle to work and spritz the windscreen.

I also did a full tuneup with new plugs, points, valve adjustment, correct timing, and new oil. I changed the oil in the air cleaner after removing old sludge and dirt.

After all this work, the engine runs well. It starts on the first try, and the auto choke appears to be working, as the idle is fine when the engine is cold. But I am experiencing stalling at idle after the car runs for about 2 minutes.

Here are the numbers on my engine, carburetor, and distributor:

Engine H5470781
Carburetor 30 PICT-2
Distributor 0 231 137 035

I'd love some advice. I've read good and bad things about the Solex PICT 30-2. Should I replace it with a Solex PICT 30-1 or PICT 30-3? Or should I try to rebuild the current 30 PICT-2? :?:

Thank you,

Victoria

Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:30 pm

If the carb can be cleaned out, then it's not a terrible one. I'd at least attempt to clean it out before you give up on it. Does it have tight throttle shaft bushings? (engine off, open the throttle about 1/3rd of the way and try wiggling the arm front/rear of car and up down, some play is normal. but you don't want it flopping around either) It sounds like it might all be original stuff on there, so don't throw it out just yet.

The 035 distributor is the correct match in 1969 for the 30PICT-2. I've talked about the modifcation state number of the carburetor before, that's the number stamped on the base flange of the carb, and in 1969 it was VW126-2 or VW126-3 (I think the difference between the two is the thread pitch of idle mixture/volume screw)

-Andy

Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:03 pm

Thank you for your response, Andy.

The number stamped on the base flange of the carburetor is VW126-1. The previous owners purchased the car in Germany and shipped it back to California with USA options. It left the factory in September 1968.

With the throttle opened about 1/3rd of the way, there is .5mm front to back play, 1mm up and down play, and 3mm side to side play. Is that acceptable, or should I replace that bushing?

Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:45 pm

Victoria Rose wrote: Thank you for your response, Andy.

The number stamped on the base flange of the carburetor is VW126-1. The previous owners purchased the car in Germany and shipped it back to California with USA options. It left the factory in September 1968.

With the throttle opened about 1/3rd of the way, there is .5mm front to back play, 1mm up and down play, and 3mm side to side play. Is that acceptable, or should I replace that bushing?

Andy and I have both expressed our opinions of the 30 pict -2 and it's ( in our opinioin) inherant problems I still rebuild them but have stipulations such as yours. Known good, known original to the car/engine and it's a better ratio that it can be rebuilt.

I have wasted many hours of time rebuilding 30 pict-2 carbs that just would NOT run/tune properly and if I have to build 3 or 4 to get one good one it's just not worth it. I do a LOT of carbs so it's an issue when you can isolate this one model to having a higher "dud" ratio than even other 35-50 year old carbs ;)

It does sound by what you posted that is significant play in the throttle shaft. There are no bushing to replace, the term "rebushing" on many is a misnomer. If the have not be "bushed" once before that is.

Fact is until the later model 34 pict 3 German with some black plastic sleeves and then the aftermarket Bocar and Brosol carbs there were NO "bushings" in the orginal VW solex German carbs at all.

Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:46 pm

Okay, well, I think that 126-1 carb was from 1968 model year and went with the "M" distributor, but really there's not much difference except different cap/rotor between those two distributors. Being not originally a US delivery might be the difference though, I think it's possible that it might still have been the original carb. Does it have any of the "smog" stuff on it? (throttle positioner)

That does sound a bit loose on the thorttle shafts. I think though, I'd try minimum spraying out the passenges of the carb with carb/choke cleaner, better yet, dismantle and soak it and see if it wants to clean out the idle circuit and then idle properly afterwards.

You can't just pop in throttle shaft bushings, those have to be machined out, new ones pressed in, and reamed. Keith (keifernet) is the MAN for that.

I see he answered while I was typing this up...! So I won't have to dig up his contact info... :wink:

-Andy

Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:09 pm

man, you smoke me in the tech department, you come with serial numbers and everything, I need to start doing that so I can get better answers! :shock:

GOOD JOB!

Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Victoria:

I have a '70 that the previous owner installed a 1500 single port engine. It had the 30 pict 2 carb and ran much like yours. I replaced that carb with this new one from Aircooled.net--it runs like a champ now:

http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=FSK0051&cartid=1107200938735859

Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:36 pm

Quote: I think though, I'd try minimum spraying out the passenges of the carb with carb/choke cleaner, better yet, dismantle and soak it and see if it wants to clean out the idle circuit and then idle properly afterwards.

I went out and purchased some spray carburetor cleaner. I affixed the little red straw to the nozzle and sprayed the body of the carburetor, as well as the linkage. Wow, what a difference in just the appearance! The spray removed all the gunk on the body of the carburetor.

With the engine running and air cleaner removed, I sprayed small amounts of cleaner into the throat, which made the engine hesitate briefly and then resume normally. I shut off the engine and removed the volume control screw, noting its current position. I sprayed the screw and the hole it goes into, and then I replaced the screw in its original position.

I started the car and it seemed to sound smoother than before. I took the car for ride, and it did not stall at 2 stoplights in a row. Alas, the 3rd stoplight spelled doom for the carburetor, and it resumed its former behaviour of stalling at idle. Did some schmutz work its way back into some delicate part? A removal and tear down sounds in order, so I can do a thorough cleaning. Problem is, I've never done that before, so I'll have to research the procedure.

Quote: Does it have any of the "smog" stuff on it? (throttle positioner)

Andy -- I read my Haynes Manual to find out what a throttle positioner is. I can see that it has been removed from my carburetor and the vacuum line plugged. I like the sound of what it's supposed to do, but I suspect that its not being there would not be the reason for stalling at idle. Should I get a new one?

Quote: I replaced that carb with this new one from Aircooled.net--it runs like a champ now

Taylor -- a new carburetor does have a certain appeal, and I may go that route if I can't get the current one to work correctly after removal, soaking, and cleaning. I'm concerned about the throttle shaft bushing needing to be professionally replaced, as this is my daily driver. If I do get a new carburetor, should I get a 30 PICT 2 again?

Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:20 pm

I was mostly asking about the throttle positioner as for completeness and originality more than anything else. You very seldom see them in place anymore. They don't do much other than prevent excessive hydrocarbon emissions when engine braking and won't affect your idle.

With the engine off, I'd screw in your idle mixture (volume) screw gently counting the turns til it bottoms out, then remove it (this way you'll know where you had it set at before) then I'd remove the pilot jet on the other side of the carb. Well, originally the pilot jet had an electromagnetic solenoid built onto it.... if that's the case, you might want to test that, with the key on and if you unhook and reconnect the power to it, it should click. Then key off, remove whichever one you got, then and then get out your can of carb/choke cleaner and give it a blast into both of those holes. If you have access to compressed air I'd follow that with a blast of 100PSI or so. Even one of those dust spray cans of air might help out some. What you're trying to do is dislodge any gunk in the idle circuit.

Also spray some cleaner into the jet/cutoff valve. Sometimes you'll see an old, old cutoff valve, these have a screw on them you can use to make it so they are always on, if the valve fails, this will allow the idle circuit to still work. You don't see this style very often though, pic below... (usually people replace the cutoff valve style jet with a small solid brass jet instead.) Also, another thing that sometimes makes a difference, is to change the position of the jet, if it's really tight, try loosening it a smidge.

I like the simplicity of the 30PICT-1 carb. And I like German quality over aftermarket. Although Bocar/Mexican 30PICT-1 carbs are decent. Still you might want to ask Keith about one of his fixed up German carbs as an alternative to a new one.

-Andy

Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:53 am

[quote="Victoria Rose"] Quote: Taylor -- a new carburetor does have a certain appeal, and I may go that route if I can't get the current one to work correctly after removal, soaking, and cleaning. I'm concerned about the throttle shaft bushing needing to be professionally replaced, as this is my daily driver. If I do get a new carburetor, should I get a 30 PICT 2 again?

I went with the "direct replacement" carb offered by AirCooled.net. It is the 30/31 listed for $169 on that site. The owner of that business, John, is extremely helpful with tech advice. I told him my situation and he recommended that particular carb. He provided his own installation/set-up instructions with the carb. It has worked extremely well for me.

Good luck!

Bill

Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:10 am

I also went that route with a 1600SP and bought a dist to match from aircooled. It works pretty well but I am in the process of finding a 30 pict 3 and a 205T dist to put it back together as stock. Aircooled can be backordered for a while so you might want to check stock :( but the instructions they send are pretty good though.

Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:13 am

If it were me, I'd see if the throttle shafts are the source of your problem before buying a new carb.

Start the engine and let it idle with the choke on. Using your can of carb cleaner + straw, spray suspected leak areas of he carb/intake system:
flange where carb meets intake
intake to head junction
throttle shaft to carb body junction
If spraying any of these spots causes a change in engine rpm (up or down), you have found a leak.

You might get lucky and find the intake/head gaskets are leaking (easy fix).

Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:27 pm

I agree that you should rule out the easy fixes before giving up on the carb. I had throttle bushing installed in my PICT30-2 for $25 dollars. I then took the carb fully apart and soaked it in carb cleaner overnight and the carb works like new. It passed emissions easily also. Here's a pic-

Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:25 pm

wcfvw69 wrote: I agree that you should rule out the easy fixes before giving up on the carb. I had throttle bushing replaced in my PICT30-2 for $25 dollars. I then took the carb fully apart and soaked it in carb cleaner overnight and the carb works like new. It passed emissions easily also.

Wcfvw69, that is a wonderful piccie of your engine. Very inspiring to look at indeed! I see your carburetor has the throttle positioner that mine is missing. I'll have to find one, because I like the concept of what it's intended to do.

After reading everyone's helpful posts, I thought I had better carefully inspect my carburetor again today. I got up close and personal with the carburetor and determined that there is an interesting looking screw on the right side of the body behind the choke. I had not noticed it before, because it's tucked far out of sight.

I identified it in my Haynes manual as an Idle Jet Screw. I think I'm supposed to have an electromagnetic cutoff jet, but someone replaced it, taped the wire, and put in this simple screw instead.

I carefully undid the Idle Jet Screw and gave it a careful look in the warm San Diego sunlight. It was sehr schmutzig! The tiny holes were plugged up with black gunk, so I cleaned the little screw with carb cleaner until it was clear and shiny. I reinstalled the screw and started up the car. The first thing I noticed was that the idle speed had increased significantly, so I turned the volume screw in a ways until the engine started to hesitate and then screwed it back out a bit to get a smooth idle. Next I reduced the idle speed with the idle stop screw against the cam thing.

I took the Beetle out for a spin, and it just purred and never stalled. :D

In the future, I can still remove the carburetor, have the bushing replaced, and do it up with a cleaning and rebuild kit. For now it's fun to drive without stalling! I don't dislike my Solex PICT 30-2 anymore. :wink:

One caveat I've noticed is that the car now has a tendency to run on a bit after I turn off the key. Apparently the electromagnetic cutoff jet addresses this minor annoyance? :?:

Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:38 pm

Victoria Rose wrote: wcfvw69 wrote: I agree that you should rule out the easy fixes before giving up on the carb. I had throttle bushing replaced in my PICT30-2 for $25 dollars. I then took the carb fully apart and soaked it in carb cleaner overnight and the carb works like new. It passed emissions easily also.

Wcfvw69, that is a wonderful piccie of your engine. Very inspiring to look at indeed! I see your carburetor has the throttle positioner that mine is missing. I'll have to find one, because I like the concept of what it's intended to do.

After reading everyone's helpful posts, I thought I had better carefully inspect my carburetor again today. I got up close and personal with the carburetor and determined that there is an interesting looking screw on the right side of the body behind the choke. I had not noticed it before, because it's tucked far out of sight.

I identified it in my Haynes manual as an Idle Jet Screw. I think I'm supposed to have an electromagnetic cutoff jet, but someone replaced it, taped the wire, and put in this simple screw instead.

I carefully undid the Idle Jet Screw and gave it a careful look in the warm San Diego sunlight. It was sehr schmutzig! The tiny holes were plugged up with black gunk, so I cleaned the little screw with carb cleaner until it was clear and shiny. I reinstalled the screw and started up the car. The first thing I noticed was that the idle speed had increased significantly, so I turned the volume screw in a ways until the engine started to hesitate and then screwed it back out a bit to get a smooth idle. Next I reduced the idle speed with the idle stop screw against the cam thing.

I took the Beetle out for a spin, and it just purred and never stalled. :D

In the future, I can still remove the carburetor, have the bushing replaced, and do it up with a cleaning and rebuild kit. For now it's fun to drive without stalling! I don't dislike my Solex PICT 30-2 anymore. :wink:

One caveat I've noticed is that the car now has a tendency to run on a bit after I turn off the key. Apparently the electromagnetic cutoff jet addresses this minor annoyance? :?:

I have posted about cleaning and checking the idle pilot jet and or electric idle solenoid for debris and being clogged probably hundreds of times... so have many others.

I would say check your timing first and make sure it's not advanced beyone what it should be. This can cause "dieseling" or run on after shut down. That is what the electric idle solenoids purpose is though. However I have seen plenty of 30 pict 1 and 2 carbs run just fine and not "run on" when it's replaced with just a plain brass jet.

Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:55 pm

Glad you figured it out and that it's running good now.

Keep in mind, that dirt had to get into that jet from somewhere, so you might have a look inside your carb sometime and see if there's much crud on the bottom of the bowl.

I've run years on 30PICT-1 carbs without the cutoff valve and never had dieseling (run-on) issues.

-Andy

Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:21 pm

keifernet wrote: I have posted about cleaning and checking the idle pilot jet and or electric idle solenoid for debris and being clogged probably hundreds of times... so have many others.

I would say check your timing first and make sure it's not advanced beyone what it should be. This can cause "dieseling" or run on after shut down. That is what the electric idle solenoids purpose is though. However I have seen plenty of 30 pict 1 and 2 carbs run just fine and not "run on" when it's replaced with just a plain brass jet.

Thank you for your tips, Keith. Good advice bears repeating, especially for newbies just learning. :wink:

I'll be sure to check the timing to see if it's too advanced. I set it at TDC, but maybe it changed. I'll also take Andy's advice and check for crud on the bottom of the float bowl.

I bought the car in October and have been learning from the Samba, John Muir's book, the Haynes book, and Rick Higgins' BugMe Videos to know how to fix it. Prior to buying the car, I had no tools and no knowledge of how cars work. Working on the bug has been a wonderfully engaging experience. I am especially grateful for all the personal help to be had here on the Samba.

Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:25 pm

Sounds like your learning curve - Haynes and Muir - are not too far off from what mine was. The difference being, it was 20 years ago for me, and I didn't have any help from the internet!

Sounds to me like you are on the right path, and a good mindset, mechanically inclined and a good DIY metality. :D

You might also get the Bentley manual for your car at some point.

-Andy

Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:00 pm

Great news! Glad to hear it was something easy! Keith and Andy's knowledge is terrific when it comes to these engines/carbs. Personally, I've never had any luck with either a PICT30-1 or PICT30-2 "not running on"w/out an electronic solenoid. Thus, I've installed used idle solenoids in both my 67 and 69 bugs. Both engines shut off now w/out "running on". I'm sure Keith has a stash of them to sell and many other vendors sell them here too.