TheSamba.com :: View topic - GoWesty Coolant Pipe Repair Kit

Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:34 am

Wildthings wrote: westyventures wrote: Wow. What a wild discussion. Seems a couple [inexpensive] SS pop rivets, properly placed, would work beautifully and save a lot of moolah!

The GoWesty article mentioned that this would cause the plastic to break. I would say that this could be a likely result.

If someone were to do this they might want to try 6-8 screws or pop rivets to spread the load.

I think thats just a way for them to say, basically: "buy our product, nothing else will work" and just hoping that people aren't inventive enough to come up with other, cheaper, solutions.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:17 am

jacob. wrote:
I think thats just a way for them to say, basically: "buy our product, nothing else will work" and just hoping that people aren't inventive enough to come up with other, cheaper, solutions.

Why so cynical towards GW? I would think they came up with something they thought works and marketed it accordingly. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But I don't think their intent is to fool people. Their approach seems to be to develop repair "kits" for folks who may not want to (or simply can't ) spend several hours a day thinking about pipes under thier van. We are the lucky ones.

Mark

Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:44 am

markz2004 wrote: jacob. wrote:
I think thats just a way for them to say, basically: "buy our product, nothing else will work" and just hoping that people aren't inventive enough to come up with other, cheaper, solutions.

Why so cynical towards GW? I would think they came up with something they thought works and marketed it accordingly. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But I don't think their intent is to fool people. Their approach seems to be to develop repair "kits" for folks who may not want to (or simply can't ) spend several hours a day thinking about pipes under thier van. We are the lucky ones.

Mark

I agree with Mark, Wether it works or not I think GW is convinced it does and is marketing it in good faith. YUp, most people don't have the time, space, tools, or resources to prototype fixes, and manufacturing something you think your customers need and want is not without risk, both to your reputation and your bottom line.

Try buying one metric screw of an unusual size to test out an idea, you must buy 100. Your $5 idea just cost you $50.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:43 am

So it seems that through all the information presented in this post, we did learn something new and different than was originally assumed.

-The metal inserts are molded into the pipes when they are made and are not just inserted afterward.
-Age, heat, vibration, and expansion/contraction cause the tubing to get brittle and crack over time, freeing the metal insert and barb from the tube.
-The barb was part of the tube, not the insert.
-An unknown force causes the insert and barb to work their way out of the tube over long periods of time. Possibly fluid pressure, tension from a hose and clamp, material shrinkage, expansion/contraction rates of different materials, or other unknown items at this time.

So, the original assumptions seem to be in question, and that's what's wrong with assumptions. Anyone have any new theories to offer? Any new explanations we haven't considered?

Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:56 am

I would strongly dispute number 1. The pipes are extruded in a bulk fashion. They are later cut to length, fitted with insert, machined for barb and hose clamp, marked for hose insertion depth. At some point they are shaped. The sequence of events is my speculation.

You can plainly see the linear extrusion marks running the lengths the pipes. You can plainly see the later machining marks in circles around the barb and clamp area. The metal insert far inside edge is not embedded in the plastic from any kind of molding process.

Mark

PDXWesty wrote: So it seems that through all the information presented in this post, we did learn something new and different than was originally assumed.

-The metal inserts are molded into the pipes when they are made and are not just inserted afterward.
-Age, heat, vibration, and expansion/contraction cause the tubing to get brittle and crack over time, freeing the metal insert and barb from the tube.
-The barb was part of the tube, not the insert.
-An unknown force causes the insert and barb to work their way out of the tube over long periods of time. Possibly fluid pressure, tension from a hose and clamp, material shrinkage, expansion/contraction rates of different materials, or other unknown items at this time.

So, the original assumptions seem to be in question, and that's what's wrong with assumptions. Anyone have any new theories to offer? Any new explanations we haven't considered?

Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:02 pm

Mark,

Is it possible that the end of the pipes are heated after they are extruded and cut, the metal inserted, then the end is pressed into a mold giving it it's final shape? That's what I meant by molded. It seemes that machining would be too costly or time consuming a process for a hose end like this. Heat forming is more likely.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:31 pm

I am just going by the tool marks on the pipe ends. Something spun around the ends, cutting away plastic to make the recessed clamped area and barb.

Mark

PDXWesty wrote: Mark,

Is it possible that the end of the pipes are heated after they are extruded and cut, the metal inserted, then the end is pressed into a mold giving it it's final shape? That's what I meant by molded. It seemes that machining would be too costly or time consuming a process for a hose end like this. Heat forming is more likely.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:39 pm

The knowledge that the barb was initially part of the coolant pipe doesn't change my assessment of the failure process. I would conclude that the coolant pressure was still the main motive force both in separating the barb from the pipe and in pulling the insert out along with it. If the clamp alone is strong enough to keep the rubber hose from moving on the coolant pipe without the barb assisting it, then why would VW have gone through the added labor of adding the barb in the first place?

Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:53 pm

I've had two pipe end failures where the plastic barb broke partially or completely off. Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention to where exactly the insert was relative to where it should have been.

[warning: jury-rigging to follow] Both times, I cut off the mangled pipe end, used a coupler to add a section of extension hose so it would comfortably reach the now shorter pipe, then double (triple?) clamped the hose to the plastic. Both have stayed in place for a couple of years - no barb, no insert. Don't know what that means in all this, nor am I advocating such foolery... but... yeah, there it is.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:04 pm

chimivee wrote: I've had two pipe end failures where the plastic barb broke partially or completely off. Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention to where exactly the insert was relative to where it should have been.

[warning: jury-rigging to follow] Both times, I cut off the mangled pipe end, used a coupler to add a section of extension hose so it would comfortably reach the now shorter pipe, then double (triple?) clamped the hose to the plastic. Both have stayed in place for a couple of years - no barb, no insert. Don't know what that means in all this, nor am I advocating such foolery... but... yeah, there it is.

I was thinking a few screws around the very end of the pipe would do the same job as the barb. I can't understand why the plastic pipe collapses without an insert. The pipe seems pretty rigid. Does it soften up when it gets hot?

Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:25 pm

When I bought my Syncro used one of the barbs was already missing and a hose soon blew off. At the time I had no idea there was supposed to be an insert as well. First time around I just reinstalled the hose and cursed VW for not having a barb on the end of the pipe. The second time it blew off I decided I had better do something to improve the situation. I searched around and found a piece of thin walled tubing that would just slide over the end of the pipe. I cut off a hunk and glued it to the pipe. It is still together today well over a decade later. From this I would say that the insert may not be absolutely necessary.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:33 pm

Wildthings wrote: When I bought my Syncro used one of the barbs was already missing and a hose soon blew off. At the time I had no idea there was supposed to be an insert as well.

Did you look inside the rubber hose for the insert? If it had followed the GoWesty scenario it would have wiggled into the hose far enough to be out of sight.

Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:45 pm

Andrew A. Libby wrote: Wildthings wrote: When I bought my Syncro used one of the barbs was already missing and a hose soon blew off. At the time I had no idea there was supposed to be an insert as well.

Did you look inside the rubber hose for the insert? If it had followed the GoWesty scenario it would have wiggled into the hose far enough to be out of sight.

Don't remember noticing it, but that was way back in '94 or so, and like I said I don't think I knew there was such a thing as an insert at the time. I have bought a Zetec for this rig and should be getting it installed with six months or so. Will be doing all the hoses at that time, so will check.

Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:15 pm

Any one consider thermal cycles acting on 2 different materials with different coefficients of thermal expansion? The metal insert probably has a different CTe compared to the plastic. They expand slightly differently and the insert eventually squirts out the end of the pipe after many thermal cycles. I don't know the 2 materials in question so cant look up the material properties.

Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:13 pm

I'm doing the Bostig conversion. My large plastic coolant pipes are without the metal ring on the ends. I just put the new hose about 8" over the plastic pipes and put 3 hose clamps on spaced out by 3-4" each.

Anyone see any problems with this approach?

Stephen

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Fri May 07, 2010 12:55 pm

I have a Go Westy coolant repair kit coming, I need to fix one of the pipe in the front.

Can I do it with the coolant pipe in place?

Fri May 07, 2010 11:13 pm

SyncroChrick wrote: I have a Go Westy coolant repair kit coming, I need to fix one of the pipe in the front.

Can I do it with the coolant pipe in place?
From one I understand about the kit, there is no modification to the pipe itself, so there should be no need for removal.

Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:56 am

Digging up an old post,

I wonder if during the three years since all of this discussion has ended,

Is there any real life feedback on various repairs made to the factory coolant pipes?
Have they held up?
Any failures?

Be the repairs the
Go Westy Kits,
Pop Rivets,
Screws,
Adhesives,
Etc.

Dave

Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:05 am

I have only done one of the rivet repairs, but it's still on the road and doing fine after about 55,000 miles.

Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:19 am

djkeev wrote: Digging up an old post,

I wonder if during the three years since all of this discussion has ended,

Is there any real life feedback on various repairs made to the factory coolant pipes?
Have they held up?
Any failures?

Be the repairs the
Go Westy Kits,
Pop Rivets,
Screws,
Adhesives,
Etc.

Dave

The ends of our plastic pipe are boogered, held in place with the GW kit since 2010, about 27,000 miles. No issues so far.