TheSamba.com :: View topic - Resale Value Of Zetec, Subaru, Other Converted Vanagon?

Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:36 am

Goldie86 wrote: If the only option was the original WBX engine I would not own my westy.

Key word being "original" as we all know that TenCent (Vanistan) and RJE (Rocky Jennings) WBX engines are far from "original" when it come to both power and reliability yet they are also not exactly "conversions" either. Maybe these engines are the best option for purists who want the power of a conversion and more reliability than stock while retaining originality.

Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:56 am

zeohsix wrote: TequilaSunSet wrote: SyncroChrick wrote:

That's why it's all about "matching numbers" for muscle cars.

.

But we are not talking about a muscle car, and you are talking about said car with matching numbers too. Just those two types are completely different animals in of themselves, let alone trying to base a vanagon in that same category.

Lets use 32 Ford roadsters... a customized one will fetch more than a stock one 9 times out of 10.

It all depends on the current market and demand. The market is changing and conversions are becoming far more common. There are people willing to pay more for a conversion and I can see the tide shifting. The WBX is one of those motors just begging to be upgraded.

Actually in the Muscle Car market....late model motor swaps are becoming quite popular and current market trends have clean " LS swapped GM muscle cars getting good returns on investment at auction "
The old pre OBD2 motors are becoming obsolete but put an OBD2 1.8T into a van with full documentation and you should be able to expect a reasonable return on investment.
WBX to power my 2 1/2 ton Syncro Westy? NO THANKS! I don't want to be the guy praying that I make it up the hill to Reno or Denver while detonating the last of a line of motors from a 36HP ancestor.
Color me turbo! Gone in 60 seconds..........

^^^ :D :D :D

Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:31 am

I get it that conversions typically offer more power than the WBX but don't buy into the theory that they are inherently more reliable.

Sure, a fresh Subaru engine should be more reliable than a high-mileage WBX but in my 25 years with the WBX (the only experience I have with the Vanagon) it has proven very reliable.

Any engine can let you down, moreso if maintenance is neglected or you are not properly prepared -- but with appropriate care I believe the WBX can be quite reliable.

Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:00 pm

Ahwahnee wrote: I get it that conversions typically offer more power than the WBX but don't buy into the theory that they are inherently more reliable.

Sure, a fresh Subaru engine should be more reliable than a high-mileage WBX but in my 25 years with the WBX (the only experience I have with the Vanagon) it has proven very reliable.

Any engine can let you down, moreso if maintenance is neglected or you are not properly prepared -- but with appropriate care I believe the WBX can be quite reliable.

Reliable yes, spare parts available in BFE? Not so much.
I carry a bunch of spares on a long trip. Alternator, PS pump, injector, belts, but there are so many things that can go wrong - Idle air controller, distributor, hall sender, coil, exploding plastic fuel injector rail, water pump. Question is: can I carry 'em all? (and I say this as a reliable WBX owner who is pining for a Bostig).

Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:08 am

As of today, watching auctions and classifieds...converted vans get bid to or offers made for about 1/2 the price that are set as reserves or advertised prices.

$25,000 is a good number for a excellent condition van with a professional conversion and maintenance, IMHO.
Syncros will bring $35,000.

$95,000 vans with a WBX having 200,000 miles on it sounds like a stretch to me.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:41 am

Ahwahnee wrote: I get it that conversions typically offer more power than the WBX but don't buy into the theory that they are inherently more reliable.

Sure, a fresh Subaru engine should be more reliable than a high-mileage WBX but in my 25 years with the WBX (the only experience I have with the Vanagon) it has proven very reliable.

Any engine can let you down, moreso if maintenance is neglected or you are not properly prepared -- but with appropriate care I believe the WBX can be quite reliable.

Bottom line we love our Vanagons stock or modified. In most cases a more advanced design of a motor vs. and older air cooled converted to water box motor is money well spent. I get being a purist and prefer stock, thats cool... I am just not of the ilk to have stock stuff, hence a tin top with a westy interior, thats been lowered on 17" BRM's, and has a 1.8T (I've reduced the odds of seeing myself coming in the opposite direction)

A bit OT but what about suspension and wheel alterations? So many "Original" Vanagons change these out improving the handling immensely, while keeping the OG motor. I think it's tough to find anyone who doesn't want to improve on the driving experience of the Vanagon, while keeping much of the pure essence intact... the camping and off road experiences that can be had.

Mine has value to only me and that is all I planned on from the start :D

Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:56 am

Here is a real life case study (as of 2/18/14) with comparable vehicles:

Westfalia Syncro 1990 with 213xxx miles and Subaru SVX 3.3 - (currently at $23K with 8 days left - I will update with final price)

(ebay 221375698442)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-Bus-Vanagon-Van...ars_Trucks

Westfalia Syncro 1991 with 231000 and WBX 2.1 engine - highest bid was $45K

(ebay 281263291575)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-VW-Vanagon-Westfalia-...5.l2557[b]

If this is of any indication, the sale price does not seem to have been impacted negatively by keeping the original WBX.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:07 am

Bone stock, unmolested vans will bring higher prices than converted vans.
Great explanations of why can be found given by high end auction houses like Barrett Jackson.

Drilling holes, augmenting and customizing will lower the value compared to a beautiful stocker.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:07 am

I too would offer less for a SVX conversion. I would much rather have a stock engine, then quickly change it to TDI ;)

Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:09 am

What really shows in the sales price of the converted vans is WHO converted them and what parts were used.

There are about three people I would trust to do harness mods...DIY usually spells trouble with the newer engines.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:10 am

hans j wrote: I too would offer less for a SVX conversion. I would much rather have a stock engine, then quickly change it to TDI ;)

Much, much less support of the EG33/SVX is on the horizon.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:39 am

I would never own a WBX powered van.
Having said that,I also am very much in agreement that the price tag for a stock totally original Vanagon will allways be higher.The only thing that no one on this subject has touched on too much is this:
The idea of collectability due to originality also includes the notion that ALL of the van is original,exactly as it came from the factory.So,if you upgrade your crappy faucet,your crappy headlights,stock battery size,etc.etc.,you now do not have a collectable vehicle to the true purist anyway.What about even swapping those steel wheels for the Carat wheels? not original to a collector.There are very few that cry out against an engine conversion that aren't guilty of changing something else,negating the collectable point.
As far as the band aid hopped up WBX that several guys sell for stupid money,they are also not original.(NO disrespect at all to the helpful folks that build them and help others) Someone on here was saying that folks were coming up with suitable "replacement" parts for the WBX,but isn't this simply another smaller version of modifying? I understand that is becoming necessary due to NLA,but whats the difference between a WBX loaded with aftermarket life support vs. another type of engine to the "purist" that's at the Barrett auto auction if he/she is TRULY a matching numbers-type?
So much for the matching numbers idea for someone who has done ANY type of modification,no matter how small.
BTW,I have a totally original unmolested solid axle Toyota,original right down to the replacement factory keys and power steering emblem from Japan.I say this because I truly can relate to an original restoration perspective.There are just so very few truly untouched Vanagons out there,for good reason as they lemon-like in a number of ways from VW.Do you all remember how many Vanagons were piled up behind every german repair shop in such nice shape in the early-mid nineties due to the owners walking on the unbelievable engine related repair bill? Those were "stock" Vanagons! I still source many of my parts from just one of those shops,they have five.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:56 am

The resale value really is subjective.
For example, were you subjective when you decided to
toss an $7,000 engine conversion into a vehicle apprasied at $1500?
Its about passion really and luck.
Find both qualities, in a potential buyer and I figure 75% of costs can be recouped :lol:

Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:17 am

I think the real "value" in paying more for a stock WBX-equipped van over a conversion is:
1. It's fully serviceable by any Vanagon-qualified mechanic, or by a handy owner with a Bentley
2. You can choose your preferred conversion and how it's installed - no surprises
I don't think it's really a question of totally bone stock or nothing. If I sell my van with the upgraded suspension, SA grill, 15" wheels etc. it's not going to be turned away by the VW mechanic for a water pump replacement or whatever...
A suby in the trunk OTOH...

Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:27 am

Now that Vanagons are apparently becoming investments, we'll have more true restorers taking good, useable vans and turning them into museum pieces that will only be brought out of garages to roll the mileage ten miles per month and putt-putt down to the local VW show on sunny Sunday afternoons. Values will go up for these stock vans, and wealthy people (and a few lucky other folks) will make money.

Meanwhile, a small but fervent contingent of Vanagon drivers will come up with all kinds of modifications that continue to make the things more useable, more comfortable, and more entertaining in general; they will drive them cross-country and through the rocks and dirt and mud and snow; they'll break them and fix them and repeat ad nauseum until they've run their Vanagons completely into the ground. (I proudly belong to this second group.)

The worth of my Vanagon is measured in the amount of fun I can have with it, not what a collector will eventually pay for it. But I'm in agreement with most on this thread that OEM vehicles bring in bigger dollars as they get older, especially limited production factory OEM vehicles. The market will top out for engine-coverted Vanagons eventually and slide well below originals. How many Corvair buses do you see anymore?

When the day comes that I worry about making sure that my van has a production-correct shift knob, I'll take it as a signal that I've lost my sense of humor about Vanagons and should spend my money elsewhere.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:49 am

joetiger wrote: Now that Vanagons are apparently becoming investments, we'll have more true restorers taking good, useable vans and turning them into museum pieces that will only be brought out of garages to roll the mileage ten miles per month and putt-putt down to the local VW show on sunny Sunday afternoons. Values will go up for these stock vans, and wealthy people (and a few lucky other folks) will make money.

Meanwhile, a small but fervent contingent of Vanagon drivers will come up with all kinds of modifications that continue to make the things more useable, more comfortable, and more entertaining in general; they will drive them cross-country and through the rocks and dirt and mud and snow; they'll break them and fix them and repeat ad nauseum until they've run their Vanagons completely into the ground. (I proudly belong to this second group.)

The worth of my Vanagon is measured in the amount of fun I can have with it, not what a collector will eventually pay for it. But I'm in agreement with most on this thread that OEM vehicles bring in bigger dollars as they get older, especially limited production factory OEM vehicles. The market will top out for engine-coverted Vanagons eventually and slide well below originals. How many Corvair buses do you see anymore?

When the day comes that I worry about making sure that my van has a production-correct shift knob, I'll take it as a signal that I've lost my sense of humor about Vanagons and should spend my money elsewhere.

And history repeats itself for the third time! Just look at T1 and T2 buses to see where it's headed... Stock up while you can!

Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:37 pm

photogdave wrote: I think the real "value" in paying more for a stock WBX-equipped van over a conversion is:
1. It's fully serviceable by any Vanagon-qualified mechanic, or by a handy owner with a Bentley
2. You can choose your preferred conversion and how it's installed - no surprises
I don't think it's really a question of totally bone stock or nothing. If I sell my van with the upgraded suspension, SA grill, 15" wheels etc. it's not going to be turned away by the VW mechanic for a water pump replacement or whatever...
A suby in the trunk OTOH...

bostig waterpump out in 10 minutes in in 10 minutes no bently or lift req
SWEET! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

and hand a wad full of 00$ bills with the bently and hope he gets it right not to the next let down imo

Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:08 pm

bdcain wrote: photogdave wrote: I think the real "value" in paying more for a stock WBX-equipped van over a conversion is:
1. It's fully serviceable by any Vanagon-qualified mechanic, or by a handy owner with a Bentley
2. You can choose your preferred conversion and how it's installed - no surprises
I don't think it's really a question of totally bone stock or nothing. If I sell my van with the upgraded suspension, SA grill, 15" wheels etc. it's not going to be turned away by the VW mechanic for a water pump replacement or whatever...
A suby in the trunk OTOH...

bostig waterpump out in 10 minutes in in 10 minutes no bently or lift req
SWEET! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

and hand a wad full of 00$ bills with the bently and hope he gets it right not to the next let down imo

Don't worry, I believe it! Love the Bostig and have no personal issues with any conversion.
Just looking at it from the point of view of a new owner coming to a van full of possible unknowns.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:19 pm

photogdave wrote: I think the real "value" in paying more for a stock WBX-equipped van over a conversion is:
1. It's fully serviceable by any Vanagon-qualified mechanic
That point is on somewhat shaky ground since those are quickly going the way of the dodo bird. The stock platform isn't even as widely supported as a bug engine.
If one doesn't have a basic understanding of the vehicle(with any engine) putting it in the hands of a pro can be a crap shoot, that situation has been played out many times in this forum.

Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:50 pm

syncrodoka wrote: photogdave wrote: I think the real "value" in paying more for a stock WBX-equipped van over a conversion is:
1. It's fully serviceable by any Vanagon-qualified mechanic
Those are quickly going the way of the dodo bird. The stock platform isn't even as widely supported as a bug engine.
If one doesn't have a basic understanding of the vehicle putting it in the hands of a pro can be a crap shoot, that situation has been played out many times in this forum.

I guess it's highly dependent on one's location. In my area there is about eight qualified garages within a 20km radius. Others aren't so lucky!

Re-reading my first post I should amend 'real value' to 'perceived value', which is more of the gist I'm going for.