TheSamba.com :: View topic - mayday

Mon May 24, 2010 9:15 pm

This evening I performed my largest mechanical mishaps. Relaxation is a must before blindly rushing through this stuff...

Before adjusting my valves I popped out the #1 cylinder spark plug & placed a pencil in there (eraser end first) a la the John Muir book. This is a tip for finding the "top" of the cylinder to begin adjusting the valves. As I [manually] turned the engine I watched the pencil go down as the piston retreated in the cylinder. I kept turning and it began to come up as the piston began its compression phase... kept turning and "CRACK". I pulled on the pencil and it was stuck. I tried to reverse but couldn't.. and now I am left with 3/4 of the pencil. The other 1/4 is in the cylinder/pushrod/valve somewhere? My guess is the valve swalloed it... but am not sure.

Now... I know these type 1 engines are notorious for running with all kinds of junk rattling around in them... so my question is: do I need to remove the head and pushroods to find the pencil & clean up? Is it possible to just run the engine? If it's in the valve is there any way to get it out. I'm a shade tree house mechanic without any special tools & only an hour or so to work on the beetle (my driver) after work.

Thanks for your help & sympathy with my patheticness ;) !

Mon May 24, 2010 9:20 pm

I wouldnt run it with the pencil in it. Soo be creative on getting the pencil out, or have fun pulling the head.

Mon May 24, 2010 9:21 pm

I use a ziptie because they don't break but still a bad idea. As for the pensil best thing is to pull the head, next best is a ziptie and a gob of grease. Ever play operation, it would help. :D

Mon May 24, 2010 9:24 pm

No, you cannot run it with the pencil in there. That will destroy your motor for sure. Time to pull the cylinder head and retrieve the pencil pieces.

Mon May 24, 2010 9:47 pm

Ok so u got eraser end first, so doesn't that have a metal piece to keep eraser on the pencil I would try a low magnet and try to get it that way , or a small vacum hooked to a small hose enough to fit in the cilinder

Mon May 24, 2010 9:56 pm

Been there done that. The cyl is iron and catches the magnet way before you grab anything. pain in the butt.

Mon May 24, 2010 9:58 pm

I also like the hose attached to a small vacuum pump to get out the piece.

And if you ever feel the need to stick something down the spark plug hole, use a plastic drinking straw.

Mon May 24, 2010 10:12 pm

brice wrote: so my question is: do I need to remove the head and pushroods to find the pencil & clean up?

Sure, go ahead and run it what harm could it do?? The PO of one of mine thought it was a good idea :roll: :2gunfire:
Seriously drop the motor and pull the head. Doesn't take long vs. doing it the PO way.

At about 11 o'clock you can see a folded up piece of the aluminum band that holds the eraser stuck in the head. See the little shadow?

Mon May 24, 2010 10:19 pm

Not that it will do the work for you, but Snap-On (and I'm sure many others) sells a shielded magnet on a flexible metal rod (not a telescoping deal) for like $8. The little shield helps keep it from sticking on everything else. Has saved my bacon on a couple of things lost in intakes. Also, in a perfect world, you'd have a buddy with a flexible lighted fiber-optic camera to get a more precise bead on its whereabouts.

Short of pulling the head, you could take off the intake and likely retrieve it easier through the large-ish (compared to a spark plug hole) opening. Or, trained termites that also handle graphite. And a little robotic termite that eats the metal eraser band. But you must be able to trust the tiny robotic termite, or he could really wreak havoc on the rest of you Beetle.

Either way, you'll be pulling the intake if the head is coming off. Might get luckier there, save time, mess.

Mon May 24, 2010 10:35 pm

Garner, wouldn't there be a valve in the way? :wink:

Mon May 24, 2010 10:47 pm

Its getting late here in the Central Time Zone, but I'm guessing the valve and pencil remain strangers. I would guess that the pencil got cocked and was broken by the piston itself. I can't see how the valve would block a rescue attempt, unless (and it seems unlikely to me) that the broken bit is wedged in between a valve and its seat. And, if it was indeed the compression stroke both valves would have been closed at the time of the alleged incident. Regardless, a valve is no impediment to my highly trained robot termite minions.

I'm rethinking this. Perhaps there was a second pencil, or just one "magic pencil?" How else can you explain it?

Mon May 24, 2010 10:57 pm

if it is still in one piece you could bust out those really long hemostats and preform some exploratory surgery before you open her up all of the way.

take all 4 plugs out and see if you can roll the engine backwards.

Mon May 24, 2010 11:48 pm

It's up tp you if you want to pull the engine or not, but here's my thoughts anyways.

First off, a regular magnet wont work and neither will a shielded magnet. Pencils usually have an aluminum band that holds the eraser on. You will need one of those special aluminm magnets.

Second, the pics posted above really aint that bad. Sure there are some nicks in the piston and head, but they are not deep and really shouldn't case any major issues. The only thing I would worry about is the aluminum getting stuck under a valve at some point. The wood and graphite will eventually come apart and either burn out or get blown out of the cylinder.

I'd run it until you have time to tear it down.

Mon May 24, 2010 11:55 pm

Yup I'd try the shop vac. For a plan b how about pouring some gas down the sparg plug hole and try to flood it then take a suction gun and suck the wood parts out,maybe they will float? On a second note buy your self a tdc whistle they are about twenty bucks find out tdc any cylinder buy just screwing it into the spark plug hole. :idea:

Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 am

I've got an idea but DON'T do it until someone else with more experience signs off on it.

Like JonF said, take out the other spark plugs and roll the engine back a bit. Then fill the cylinder with gas and the pencil should float to the top where you can grab it with tweezers and then vacuum out the gas. You might want to do an oil change afterwards in case any gas seeped into your oil.

Tue May 25, 2010 12:05 am

DANG! I type too slow :)

Tue May 25, 2010 1:19 am

before you go and flood your cylinder with fuel you might do a lil experiment and see if a pencil will even float in gas.

plus i dont think this will work with the valves open when you turn the engine back

Tue May 25, 2010 2:38 am

spotco2 wrote: You will need one of those special aluminm magnets.

How can you pick up a non-magnetic material magnetically? o.O

Tue May 25, 2010 4:00 am

Go fishing.

It will take some patience but in the end this should get the bits out.....

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1759427&PMT4NO=86292263

You know gravity has pulled the pieces to the bottom so concentrate in that area.

I have one of these hanging on my tool box. Don't use it much but when I need it, there is no substitute.

Dave

Tue May 25, 2010 4:30 am

I've retrieved things & have started screws in tight places using some sticky weather strip material attached to a screwdriver. If you don't have anything like that, go to the store and buy one of those mouse glue traps. They have some super sticky stuff to trap and hold the mouse. This gel-type glue is incredibly strong. Scoop off a chunk and affix it to the end of a thin dowel rod... believe me: as soon as it hits that pencil, it'll stick!