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Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:01 pm

You all know me, well most of you, you all know that I mostly do Subi conversion. Don't think I'm sold to Subi, but it's a good option, this is how i put bread on the table, we can all relate to that.

Lately, it as been hard, engine electronic is more and more complex and it as been hard dealing with it, we had to cheat using earlier harness and ECM (computer). Since about 6 month we have worked hard trying to find a way to use late electronic but we have failed many time and time is money.

Since 08 it is mandatory that all car maker go CAN-BUS.

to resume CAN, well it's simple, it's mostly digital signal (input/output) instead of the simpler analog signal.

there is NO way to use the donor car digital signal sender, no easy way at least. So we had to find a way to transform the initial digital signal to an analog one.

The main problem is all about speed sensor. modern car need a speed input, if it doesn't have it it doesn't like it! It use to be a simple analog (magnetic) signal, but in 08 it became far more complex.

EX: before 08, all car had a simple magnetic signal send to the ECM from the transmission/wheel. In 08 the signal sent and needed was coming from both (or more) front wheel, embedded in the ABS braking system, this signal being digital could be more complex by definition! But! the ECM can read simpler signal, or, more complex one, anyway it as a good signal it's happy.

But we could NOT produce anything good, failure mean dead engine not responding.

I could bore you for hours with all that crap, I won't.

So here come the black box... an emulator that give the perfect digital signal but take it from an analog one, let's call it the translator.

I hope my English make some sense.

Of course you will understand that I won't go to deep in my explanation.

Remember, an engine is an engine, it need air, fuel and sparks.

We didn't invent the box, we supplied the precise information, what was needed, when and why. I'm no electronic wiz.

Testing is still happening as we speak. For now, it's all good.

It may seem complex but to be honest, it was not. A similar box as been on the market for 3 years, not the same but close.

Those conversion are part of my life, no way out now!

voila for tonight, i will tell more with time.

Ben

Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:09 pm

Bravo Ben,
This is a piece of the puzzle many are patiently waiting for....myself included.

How about H6 applications?

Thanks,

dylan

Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:40 pm

So you had someone make the box for you? You are using some kind of VSS for input, like reed or hall sensor?

Something like a Microchip PIC18F248 would work, some support circuits, CAN transceiver, etc. I designed some motor control circuits a few years back with CAN bus, I used a TI DSP but that is more money.

Once you know the protocol that the ECU is expecting (base ID, ext ID, data format) you are most of the way there.

I'm curious to see how this turns out and whatever new info you come up with... Not that I am doing conversions or even planning a new one for my van, just curious.

Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:03 am

Great breakthrough Ben, congratulations !

Still, some questions...

Are there other signals than speed that need "faking" ?
What are the advantages of the newer CAN ECM for a Vanagon ? Parts availability ? HP ? MPG ? Simpler harness ?

Not trying to get you to tell things you don't want to :wink:

Again, congratulations.

JMR

Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:54 pm

jmranger wrote: Great breakthrough Ben, congratulations !

Still, some questions...

Are there other signals than speed that need "faking" ?
What are the advantages of the newer CAN ECM for a Vanagon ? Parts availability ? HP ? MPG ? Simpler harness ?

Not trying to get you to tell things you don't want to :wink:

Again, congratulations.

JMR

Mostly speed, like I said above. 2 other signal can be and as been cheated.

Ben

Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:36 pm

Ben,

I'm glad to hear that you've got a solution on the way that will allow the use of the actual CAN controlled engine management system. I know Subaru is phasing in a completely new H4 engine that is EZ30 based. It is debuting in the 2011 Forester and will replace the EJ25 in the rest of the vehicles soon after. Your development should make it possible to use this new generation Subaru boxer in our Vanagons.

You are a very clever guy! :D

David

Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:44 am

D Clymer wrote: Ben,
It is debuting in the 2011 Forester and will replace the EJ25 in the rest of the vehicles soon after.
David

I was fearing that, normal cycle for an engine, 12 years or so.

Ben

Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:01 pm

Hi Ben, your progress toward solving the whole Can bus thing is great, just one thought that had crossed my mind though, do all the North American spec Subaru donor vehicles you use have the built in immobilisers as our UK spec ones do? If so is that not another additional hassle with the later Can bus models or is there a way around it? Cheers Andy.

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:53 pm

beelzibus wrote: Hi Ben, your progress toward solving the whole Can bus thing is great, just one thought that had crossed my mind though, do all the North American spec Subaru donor vehicles you use have the built in immobilisers as our UK spec ones do? If so is that not another additional hassle with the later Can bus models or is there a way around it? Cheers Andy.

It's the 9th today, i'm on my third conversion in 3 weeks. All where hard one for many reasons i can't explain on one page.

this third one is a real joke, i'm ready to burned that van. The pictures you will see in a few days... well you won't believe what you will see. I thought i have seen it all but I was wrong.

Let's just say that half of the bell housing (Auto) came with the old VW engine when i removed this one. God please help me????

This is a classic 07 engine conversion, i did so many, but this engine won't simply work properly. Something is dead wrong with it and it's something i have never seen before in 40th + conversion..

I don't get it, it's late and I can't sleep.... me want to kill someone tonight!

Ben

Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:59 pm

Ben, Rock on!

Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:26 am

youre the man ben :vw:

Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:34 am

ftp2leta wrote: beelzibus wrote: Hi Ben, your progress toward solving the whole Can bus thing is great, just one thought that had crossed my mind though, do all the North American spec Subaru donor vehicles you use have the built in immobilisers as our UK spec ones do? If so is that not another additional hassle with the later Can bus models or is there a way around it? Cheers Andy.

It's the 9th today, i'm on my third conversion in 3 weeks. All where hard one for many reasons i can't explain on one page.

this third one is a real joke, i'm ready to burned that van. The pictures you will see in a few days... well you won't believe what you will see. I thought i have seen it all but I was wrong.

Let's just say that half of the bell housing (Auto) came with the old VW engine when i removed this one. God please help me????

This is a classic 07 engine conversion, i did so many, but this engine won't simply work properly. Something is dead wrong with it and it's something i have never seen before in 40th + conversion..

I don't get it, it's late and I can't sleep.... me want to kill someone tonight!

Ben Three in as many weeks, wow.
So do all your American donor Subarus have transponder key immobilisers, or is it just us who have to deal with those?

Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:56 am

beelzibus wrote: Three in as many weeks, wow.
So do all your American donor Subarus have transponder key immobilisers, or is it just us who have to deal with those?

No immobilisers until 08 on Impreza (including WRX)/Forester. 2.5L
immobilisers can be easily cheated.

Digital speed signal is the main problem.

Forester 08-09 engine, sub harness and harness can be use with 06-07 impreza ECM, there is you tip of the day.

Back to my conversion from hell, i will remember this one for a long time... if i ever find the glitch. 9 hours and counting.

Ben

Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:06 pm

did the customer supply the engine?
have you got another one?

Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:16 pm

240Gordy wrote: did the customer supply the engine?
have you got another one?

I would never do so, this is one reason. It came from my trusted engine supplier, i saw that engine run like all the others.

I just completely swap the intake and sub harness and same problem, no worse.

I did a bunch of deep test and swapped so many part I can't believe i can't find it.

For the curious: Engine surge, won't take fuel (or to much), plug are new but BLACK, I'm running way to rich for sure. Fuel pressure is dead on. Idle is prefect. It's a tough one, believe me. Customer is from Vancouver, waiting for it's van...

No codes (OBD), good compression. Good voltage.

Poor DIY who would be stuck with such a problem.

I have other engine but they are not ready. I have to find why, no way out.

Ben

Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:29 pm

I think if you were using UK donor cars you'd find the immobilisers a lot more grief than you clearly are. Ours use encrypted transponder keys and are to my knowledge impossible to realistically bypass. We just retain the Subaru key, reader coil and transponder ECU, and bury it away somewhere in the bowels of the vehicle. It's not viable to remove it. If you don't have the original key and all the matching coded bits you'll never get the thing to start.

I find it interesting that you've been using engine management systems from one engine, on another. On modern engines with the vast number of variables I don't think it's something I'd be happy to do. Are the pre 07 US engines variable valve timing as well as the later ones? I presume they are, otherwise I think you'd have serious running problems.

Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:28 pm

beelzibus wrote:
I find it interesting that you've been using engine management systems from one engine, on another. On modern engines with the vast number of variables I don't think it's something I'd be happy to do. Are the pre 07 US engines variable valve timing as well as the later ones? I presume they are, otherwise I think you'd have serious running problems.

Sorry, you are right, we have to use the key, ign switch and imo unit.
What I mean is that it's pretty easy to do so.

VVT started here in 06, 06 and 07 are the same, ECM and harness, different color on the wiring but they go at the same place.

Impreza: can use any in 05-07, harness and ECM, 08 is full CAN-BUS but sub harness (intake) is the same, it's the same on all Impreza and Forester since 06 to 2011.
Forester: Semi CAN in 07 but still can cheat it, fully CAN in 08 but the harness is the same as 06-07, so only an ECM of an Impreza is needed.

Understand that the harness of 06-07 Impreza and 06-09 Forester are exactly the same, you only need an Impreza ECM.

Believe me, it work... I have been there and done that, to many time, to many hours lost in searching.

so, in 2010 none of the harness can easily be used. But sub harness is still the same, engine long block is the same since 06.

so, you can use a 2010 engine with the intake and sub harness and use a 06 Impreza or Forester harness and ECU and it perfectly work.

Now, we have a fully working CAN-BUS 09 Impreza engine conversion working. More to come.

Back to my story, for those who care...

the used (replaced from unknown source) transmission was stuck in reverse (lever at PARK).......... no neutral and no park!!! I was trying to rev the engine in reverse all that time... with me in the back of the van ON RAMP! I'm so tired that I didn't get it. this is how the engine felt, trying to push a wall (surging)!!!!! well good thing that this van had a very good emergency brake because i would probably be dead tonight.

So the conversion as no problem at all, it was simply in reverse trying to push a van in the back so it felt like it was surging, yep it was. Good thing my friend came and wake me up, he played with the lever until it snap in neutral and the engine rev at 6000rpm.

Someone as removed the safety switch in the auto lever box so it can be started at any position.

Now I could kill that stupid mechanic

Me, I lost 15 hours thinking something was wrong with my conversion.

the conclusion, it's never my conversion, it's always a van problem.
Remember that, remember that, remember that, remember that, remember that, remember that, remember that,...............

Ben

Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:00 pm

](*,) :2gunfire:

We could all throw a previous owner horror story here, but bottom line, glad you found it and that you're still alive.

Still... Those are always so funny when seen from a distance...

Take care,

JMR

Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:06 pm

Ben you are talking about pretty sophisticated technology for me but it sounds like you are using very recent model ie. 2008, 2009. How do you get engines that new? I just assumed you were putting older models in. Please please please a simple answer >>no high tech for me!

Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:38 pm

Benny,
My work is never at fault either......
I blame the mechanic who has been in it before me.

LMAO

dylan