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Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:04 am

going to reinstall the cv on my back end and realized the PO only had 2 of the 6 washers on the cv bolts on the left side. I noticed the washers are 'special' with slanted grooves sort of like a hurricane.

Is there a good replacement for these if I can't find the exact washer at a regular hardware store. Spring washer? Regular? Any ideas?

Anal I know, but getting this close to driving this sucker I don't want to work on the back end again. ever.

Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:05 am

Opinions will vary, but you could use standard lock washers. However, you sould be able to get the wavey lock washer at the hardware too.

Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:34 am

i couldn't find any wAvY washers that were small enough but had a big enough opening for the bolt, so I am going to try and use some blue locktite.
If anyone feels strongly against that idea, please stop me and tell me why.

Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:40 am

andrewsanteiro wrote: i couldn't find any wAvY washers that were small enough but had a big enough opening for the bolt, so I am going to try and use some blue locktite.
If anyone feels strongly against that idea, please stop me and tell me why.
wAvY washers available in metric sizes at McMaster.com plus they're on the east coast so shipping is fast. If you cant wait a few days, loctite might work to get you on the road quick, but I would still buy the washers and put them in later.

Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:02 am

VW used special lock washers on these for a reason, probably having to do with the hardness of the hardware. I've used regular wavy washers in a pinch, but keep an eye on the torque and replace the hardware with the correct stuff ASAP.

Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:03 am

Actually I think these are the ones that you want to use. They are cheap to buy and I would buy a few extras to have on hand in the toolbox.

They are the "Bellville Serrated top and bottom" in 6mm size.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#washers/=8g1ofw

Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:21 pm

Randy in Maine wrote: Actually I think these are the ones that you want to use. They are cheap to buy and I would buy a few extras to have on hand in the toolbox.

They are the "Bellville Serrated top and bottom" in 6mm size.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#washers/=8g1ofw

good looking. although the washers I currently have are completely flat, and the one in the diagram on mcmaster seems to be domed. any issue here? or are mine wrong for being flat or?

Oh, and steel or stainless?

also looks like I may only be able to purchase the washer in a pack of 50 stainless or 100 steel? friggin redic. I only need 4.

Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:01 pm

They are supoposed to be sort of "cone shaped".

Steel is fine. I will spilt a box of 100 with you.

Let me know.

Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:37 pm

they get flat when you use them, so you aren't supposed to reuse them. Use blue locktite, make sure you have the spacer plates, and torque then to spec.

amazon has m6 washers, $4.40 for 100, don't know if they are steel or not

http://www.amazon.com/Bolt-Size-Serrated-Safety-Wa...mp;sr=8-12

Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:46 pm

Lettuce wrote: they get flat when you use them, so you aren't supposed to reuse them. Use blue locktite, make sure you have the spacer plates, and torque then to spec.

amazon has m6 washers, $4.40 for 100, don't know if they are steel or not

http://www.amazon.com/Bolt-Size-Serrated-Safety-Wa...mp;sr=8-12

=D> good find. I was looking elsewhere as well and couldn't find a dang thing. For that price, I'll go ahead with that.

locktite and the washers huh. take no chances i guess. why not. better safe than sorry.

EDIT:$6.54 shipping. looks like ill post em up for sale in the classifieds cheap to help me cover costs. If anyone or Maine Randy want some I'll mail them for 10 cents/per plus postage(probably an envelope). I obviously won't need 100 in my lifetime unless I open a shop.
Maybe this box of washers could be the beginning of my new VW shop. gotta start somewhere!

Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:32 am

Is it possible those are 8mm and not 6mm?

Somebody gave me a beetle CV joint kit a few years back, and it has 6 of those washers. I think the beetles sometimes use the "allen bolts" where as we bus guys prefer the triplesquare bolts as they do not strip out.

PM me your address and tell me how many you need and I will pop them in the mail to you.

Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:12 am

I think that VW repair manuals state you do not have to use the lock washers. I have not seen them get loose, when torqued correctly with thousands of miles use.

I have replaced CV joints on bugs which had the original washers and on bugs which had no washers left on the CV joints. Todate, I have not noticed any of either the use of the old washers or using no washers of the bolts getting loose. They are 8 mm by the way,,,not 6 mm.. for the size of the inside of the washers....same as the bolt size.

torque is 25 ft. pounds for the Beetle, more for the buses. But, the bus uses the same size diameter bolts.....I torque them twice to be sure they are right on the specs.....Never a loose one and don't use thread locker.

You know, the CV bolts end up going all the way through the flanges and they get dirt, rust, corrosion on them. That adds to them staying in place. And, the flat metal pieces which hold two each of the CV bolts acts as a flat washer to spread the torque over more area of the CV joint. Wow,,,,really read somewhere that the washers are not needed. If I find that article I will let you know the source. Seems like Limbro(spelling?) or Lymbro the original company that make the original CV joints have that in the instructions for the replacement parts. When you get a new CV kit which comes with grease, hardware, the CV and boot, there are only the new bolts, not the washers. The instructions say nothing about having to put on the washers. But, , I also reuse the old tapered washer and the lock clip, which are on the old CV, as they fit better than the new parts,,so sue me.

Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:53 pm

george4888 wrote: I think that VW repair manuals state you do not have to use the lock washers.

I think you might be mistaking the instruction to omit the Bellville washer from around the axle next to the CV. I've never seen a manual say to omit the lock washers from the CV bolts.

Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:56 pm

GeorgeL wrote: george4888 wrote: I think that VW repair manuals state you do not have to use the lock washers.

I think you might be mistaking the instruction to omit the Bellville washer from around the axle next to the CV. I've never seen a manual say to omit the lock washers from the CV bolts.
x2. I *have* seen CV bolts come loose before when the lock washer is omitted.

Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:37 pm

sorry, I linked to m6 washers but the bolts are 8mm. Amazon has these too. 6 bucks / 100. http://www.amazon.com/Bolt-Size-Serrated-Safety-Wa...mp;sr=1-2, hope I didn't lead anyone astray.

My new boots came with new washers.

Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:30 pm

andrewsanteiro wrote: Randy in Maine wrote: Actually I think these are the ones that you want to use. They are cheap to buy and I would buy a few extras to have on hand in the toolbox.

They are the "Bellville Serrated top and bottom" in 6mm size.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#washers/=8g1ofw

good looking. although the washers I currently have are completely flat, and the one in the diagram on mcmaster seems to be domed. any issue here? or are mine wrong for being flat or?

Oh, and steel or stainless?

also looks like I may only be able to purchase the washer in a pack of 50 stainless or 100 steel? friggin redic. I only need 4.

Randy in Maine and GeorgeL are both correct. Do not use split lock washers. The CV joint face is too hard for standard splut washers to work....and th torque on these bolts is not high.
The factory used specific hardware. Proper metric wavy washers will work...but the serrated bellville washers are the best.

The original serrated washers are supposed to be to be dished/domed...just like the one in the drawing. they start out dished...that is how they impart tension to the bolt to keep it from backing out....that and the grip from the ribs.
They get flattened by staying crushed for a long while...which is why really good factory CV kits always give you new ones.
They are supposed to be replaced once they are flattened.

Do not use stainless. They are not hard enough or impart enough tension. Stainless bolst have ni place in your suspension. RayRay

Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:13 pm

Quote: Do not use split lock washers. The CV joint face is too hard for standard splut washers to work....and th torque on these bolts is not high.

If the torque high enough to compress the washer shouldn't they work? I understand what your saying about the washer not being able to bite into the cv joint, but i guess i would assume the pressure on from the split washer on the bolt would be enough.

Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:35 pm

My experience wtih American type split locking washers is that with the needed 25 foot pounds of torque required by VWOA on the CV bolts, the split washer will split more and not hold the torque. 25 ft. lbs. is alot to ask of a American type lock washer and the quality of most of them is not good, unless you buy grade 8 lock washers. Which would be the 5/16 ones and not fit very good on the CV bolts. There is not much space for the wrong size washer on the CV joint bolts.

If reusing the old VW type lock washer, there is a chance it will break and you will not notice this until you find one of the CV bolts has backed out, due to being loose, once the washer breaks.

Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:38 pm

what do you mean by split more?
Quote: the split washer will split more and not hold the torque

Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:52 am

Due to the variety in quality control on SAE or what we call American style split lock washers, when torqued , this action not only pushes the raised part of the lock washer down into a flat position, but often due to the design, with the split area, they will spread, at the point of the split. This is hard to explain, but if you work on enough cars, like I do, I have seen many of the split type lock washers spread apart at the crack or split area on them. Now, this is due to improper material or just cheap lock washers. This is why I suggested when using them, to ask for the better grade 8 lock washer, as that has better steel in it, to meet the standard of Grade 8 material.

If over torqued, they will spread more and I have seen some I use actually spread apart at the crack or split area, then break into two pieces. My point is that the German made washers, with no split in them, as used by VW and Porsche, such as the wavy type lock washers are so much better than the American split lock washers. But, just my opinion and others might disagree on this. It all comes down to using the washer that is the closest in design to what the German Engineers used originally.

For engine cases, for example, use the wavy washers, like VW did, not Amerifcan style lock washers. Another thing I don't like about the American type of lock washer is that they cut into the metal, when used on aluminum and the standard practise is to only use them with a flat washer, to prevent this. Now, talking here about their use in areas like on the intake manifolds and other areas where the metal is softer. Just use the proper original type washer and everytihing will last longer.

If anyone does not know this, please, ALWAYS place a wavy washer or flat washer between magnesium or aluminum and a steel nut. Never put the nut on without a washer. I have seen engines built with no washer between the large 12 mm nuts on the case halves and the case. They cut into the magnesium or alumimum and loose their torque.