TheSamba.com :: View topic - Progressive vs. State Farm

Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:33 am

Our 1978 Westfalia restoration is nearly complete. It is currently insured with GEICO, who offers no agreed value type policy. Therefore, I am about to change to a different insurer for this vehicle. I am not interested in a collector car insurer, because we intend to use it like we always have since it was new, and collector insurance restrictions are too restrictive.

I have researched the subject here and have consequently contacted both Progressive (faceless corporation) and State Farm (local office in my neighborhood), each of whom confirm that they offer agreed value policies. Over the next few days, I shall obtain estimates and make the move to one or the other for this vehicle.

Any opinions or experiences with Progressive or State Farm with regard to old VW's?

thanks

Keith

Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:27 am

Please keep me informed. I did not call state farm but I did speak with Progressive, Haggerty, American Collectors, American Modern, USAA and several others. If you go with a collector policy you can get "AGREED VALUE" which is what you want. ACV is what most use and that means they look at what the average VW bus sells for, not what it would cost your to restore another one like yours. High Book on a VW bus is about $12,000 so that is the most you would get, more likely $8000 on ACV. If you have say $15,000 - $20,000 in your bus you would lose big time. With an agreed value you can insure it for what it cost you in total. Haggerty and American Modern are the only two I could find who do true agreed value. Most of the regular insurance companies, like Progressive, I spoke with sometimes offer "stated value" policies. Their actual policy reads "LESSOR of ACV or Stated." This means they still use the lower ACV and that the stated portion becomes nothing more than a cap if values go up. Now here is the other catch - Haggerty and I had a long talk on what we could and could not use the bus for. They let me talk to an underwriter who read the policy for my state and I was told I could say take a three or four day pleasure cruise in it - say along route 66 to the Grand Canyon and stay at say a motel(s) along the way. I bought a policy based on that and the next day the Senior Underwriter called me and declined the policy saying the underwriter had erred because they do not want people using their collector cars, VW bus or not, for "what they consider vacation use" even if it is once in a lifetime. I was told that "let's say someone takes their bus to a show that is more than 50 to 100 miles from home - we expect it to be trailered in an enclosed trailer. That is what we now expect regardless what you may hear from the sales staff or other people here." I asked about just a day long trip of 300 to 500 miles to say a National Park loop as a pleasure drive. The answer was no - that is not "what we consider a pleasure drive but more a day vacation drive and the answer is the policy would not pay if you got in an accident using it as such as that is daily type use. We would pay nothing on that claim" I asked about say an owner of a collectable corvette taking his wife along the coast for a day drive on their 25th wedding anniversary and stopping to spend the night at a well known bed and breakfast on the drive - 90 - 100 miles max trip - and again the answer was "we don't want to insure that car and owner, it isn't the person we are looking for, we would decline the claim if there was one on the basis that is a daily use type event."

So please keep me informed and be sure to listen carefully to what they tell you. Progressive told the USAA rep who looked for a policy for me that would allow weekend pleasure trips, that Progressive would do an agreed value policy - but when I called the number and asked for the proof, once I got thru the sales "oh sure we can" people, Progressive 'fessed up' that they would hide behind the "LESSOR OF ACV or stated value" clause if something happened to it. You cannot trust most insurance companies - they will try to beat you out of every dollar. We were just totaled in a 1995 Acura that was showroom perfect mechanically and visually, original paint and not a door ding or scratch. We got $6300 and I could not replace the car for less than $10,000. When I said well, I guess this will have to be turned over to an attorney - I was told by USAA that because both the guy who hit us and my policy are with USAA that there is fine print in the policy that I cannot go after USAA in court, I have to accept their 3rd party opinion of value. So listen closely to what these companies tell you and ask to see a sample policy. You want an AGREED VALUE policy.

Last - everyone will write back and make suggestions how you can just use it an lie about the use, or go to a show on the way camping etc. Before the 2008 meltdown of the financial sector most of these companies let people get away with that because they reinsured with other insurance companies. When those layers of reinsurance came tumbling down, and companies realized they could no longer pass the hit to someone else, they began to enforce their policies. If you try to beat the system don't be surprised if the policy doesn't pay what you expect. All I have been able to find is collector car agreed value with charge the battery pleasure and show use or ACV policies. If there is a claim, most of the insurance world today uses a "3rd party" named CCC to determine value. CCC is software that looks for the lowest sales THROUGH A DEALER and builds a case why the car has a low value. Do a Google on CCC and lawsuits. See what you get. I suggest that if you do get any policy that is less than "AGREED VALUE" you have it appraised now so at least you know how big a hit you will take.

Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:52 pm

I just spoke with Progressive, who is sending me a quote. However, SGKent, you were right. It is not actually for an "agreed value" policy; it is for a "stated value" policy. When I asked how they price the policy, why should I buy and expensive policy with high coverage instead of a cheaper one with lower coverage, and how do I know that my pristine bus would not be replaced with an unkempt rustbucket if it were totaled, she contacted an underwriter and returned, and told me the following (and I paraphrase):

"Pictures and an appraisal will play a role in how the vehicle is valued, and each adjuster will handle it differently. I recommend that you contact two separate Progressive adjusters in your area to get a better idea of how it would be handled."

So tomorrow, I shall contact the two Progressive adjusters, and continue to pursue State Farm. Based on what I know now, my options are the following:

1) Hope that State Farm can offer better. In an emailed response to my initial query, they stated that they offer agreed value policies.
2) Stay with GEICO and essentially self-insure for collision damage
3) Go with Progressive, and pay more than I currently do with GEICO, with the likelihood that I will have better collision coverage than I presently have.

What did you end up doing?

Keith

P.S. Progressive said that they had previously offered genuine "agreed value" policies for motorhomes up until May of this year. Anyhow, our Westfalia does not qualify for their definition of a motorhome; it meets all of their criteria, except one: It does not have a permanent toilet.

Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:38 pm

Isn't "ACV" Actual Cash Value, not Average Cash Value? If it is Actual Value then you the insured have to prove the value if the company thinks it is lower. Same as any normal policy. Get an appraisal if it is that valuable. I think that using the collector policies is a major risk. Way too many ways that the company could deny a claim.

Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:33 pm

I recently had a watered down version of this conversation with my State Farm agent. They suggested I get an appraisal and we rewrite the policy based on that. They felt that otherwise, in case of a serious accident, I would get the short end.

They gave me the name of an appraiser. Guess I should call them tomorrow.

Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:50 pm

Let us know what State farm says in the end. If they have an agreed value we may move our bus there. As long as it is a true agreed value and not just a rubber stamp of NADA values.

Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:31 am

The hour I spent with State Farm agents was very rewarding. I got a nice road atlas free and also learned to remove them from the list of potential insurers.
We were considering a stated value classic/collector car policy. That was 3 or 4 years ago and I don't remember the term "agreed value" but evidently it was the same as "stated value". The bus would be insured for the amount stated on the policy. And would be backed up with an appraisal and full documentation. We dug deep into the text of the policy and found the term "the lessor of". Which is the lessor of (a) the stated value, (b) cost of a replacement bus (rust under Bondo), or (c) repair. Since they control the numbers it pretty much assures us that the actual dollar amount on the policy means nothing on our behalf. Only that it would be the absolute amount they would be liable for under any circumstance. As far as stated or agreed I'm not aware of any difference. And I've never heard of anyone getting a cash settlement for the amount written on a policy*.
*Now to clarify that, a classic policy of the true sense, such as Haggerty, does very quickly pay the cash amount on the policy without squabble according to reports I've heard. A bus friend also told me that he was notified by Haggerty that they were raising the insured value on his due to general increase in value of classics.
Whenever this topic has come up on the Samba it doesn't seem like anything new is reported. Steve, do you have a link to the last time we hashed thru it? It's either gone or else my search skills are really hurting :oops:

Three thoughts- If a close scrutiny of the outcome of the Russo-Steele catastrophe was possible it might glean new info for us. The majority of the cars evidently were covered by Haggerty but there were also "drivers" in the mix. How were they covered and were they compensated?
There are relatively few high value Busses in the Bay community. Steve and Keith maybe being a couple of the exceptions. Whereas in the Split community there are many. Some up in the 100K catagory and not all are trailer queens. I'd think if any would know the insurance tricks they would.
Also in regards to busses, the AZ Bus Club has many members that might have info. Last I inquired the suggestion was always Haggerty and how that company was somewhat lenient on the other than show usage. Major topic is usually if it is a camper is it disqualified?

Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:38 am

I think insurance offerings also differ by state. In PA, you can't get a stated value policy on a vehicle made after 1970 if you are using State Farm. Apparently that year was selected at random a few years back and is not likely to change (according to my agent). You can get a collector policy, but, of course, the driving restrictions are harsh. So, in PA, if I stick with State Farm, I pretty much have to insure my 76 Westy through the "regular" channel, which will pay out only blue book value. I'm not sure why I can't give them a larger amount of money each month so that if I did get in to an accident, I would be covered by a proportionally larger amount. I'm sure the risk assessment isn't that hard. Don't they want more of my money anyway??

Anyone know of a better solution in PA?

-Chris

Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:35 pm

Guess I'll throw my .02 in, I take it very seriously as it's what I do for a living. Why limit your options to a certain company that offers you a single product? Find an independent agent that has relationships with multiple companies. Ask them if they have companies that specialize in classic vehicles. Be sure the company offers an Agreed Value policy...this is the only way that your settlement will not be affected by a claims adjuster's opinion. Agreed value policies leave little up for interpretation...unlike ACV or Stated Value. Best thing you can do is spend 15 minutes reading through the policy language to make sure you understand the loss settlement terms. I'd be more than happy to help, although I'm only a licensed agent in NC.
Brad

Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:01 pm

bsmart wrote: Find an independent agent that has relationships with multiple companies. Ask them if they have companies that specialize in classic vehicles. Be sure the company offers an Agreed Value policy...this is the only way that your settlement will not be affected by a claims adjuster's opinion. Agreed value policies leave little up for interpretation...unlike ACV or Stated Value. Best thing you can do is spend 15 minutes reading through the policy language to make sure you understand the loss settlement terms.

Excellent advice and that is what I am doing. We are not finished but will be soon.

Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:17 pm

Right this minute the NADA Classic Car site list' my bus @ $5875 on the low side. I could buy another good bus for that :). If that's the list the insurance adjusters go by?! I know some of you guys have buses worth more than double that. But for us volks that have buses not much better than beaters, I'd say regular insurance would cover us. Speak up if you've found good insurance at a decent price, or if your insurance has taken good care of you!!

As you can tell...I'm shopping too :P

Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:54 pm

I have more in my engine than bluebook. Many people have more than bluebook in paint. Collecting and showing a classic vehicle is OK, a valid endeavor. I want to drive a nice bus, so I have chosen to take a heavy risk.

I know that insurance is not intended to benefit owners. It is intended to benefit the insurance industry. My independent agent is a really nice fellow but he acknowledges that I will lose my ass if I am ever in an accident whether it is my fault or not.

Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:23 pm

I had total confidence with my agent. He represented many companies, he worked hard and finally found one and a policy he said would stand on the policy's dollar amount and keep me well covered. Actually if the policy would have not delivered I think he would have made up the difference. Only problem is he retired and his brother is now my agent. I still have the same policy but now am not real relaxed about it.
The best bet is pursuing an independent agent like bsmart and Randy say. A Ford dealer is not going to say a Chevy is better :wink: .

Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:11 pm

Desert makes a great point. And Lulu, have you asked your Agent if he/she could provide a product where you wouldn't take such a hit? Agreed Value Policies through specialty markets often turn out to be cheaper than standard ACV policies....especially if you drive the car less often than your primary car. One of my customers lost his GTO in a garage fire, which was insured through a classic car specialty company, written on an Agreed Value Policy. There was nothing to debate, they sent him a check for $50,000, the limit of insurance on the policy. Had it been an ACV policy, the insurance company would have used an average of book values and local market prices for the same make and model, probably closer to $25,000-$30,000. For a little extra premium, the Agreed Value Policies provide much better protection and peace of mind.

Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:18 pm

1977_L63H_P27 wrote: But for us volks that have buses not much better than beaters,

They use NADA as a reference. They also look at what ones are selling near you and the condition of your bus. "Not much better than a beater" would probably be the low retail minus what it would cost to get it to low retail.

I have yet to find an agreed value policy that allows daily driving or vacations. Stated is not the same as agreed. It is usually the Lessor of Stated or ACV. What USAA told me on the daily driver policy if I used it was that they really want these old cars to self insure, meaning that they don't have enough comps to really assess the risk. Funny thing how insurance companies think. Years ago my dad had a next door neighbor who was cancelled because his house got hit twice in two years by lightening in FL. They had another neighbor cancelled because they had no claims in 30 years and the insurance underwriter's charts suggested they were due for one. My 1995 Acura Legend was worth an ACV of $6300. The RL is worth an ACV of $23,000. The premiums on the RL collision and comprehensive are 20% less than the Legend was. Go figure. You can't as IMHO these people sit in rooms and count spots on the ceilings. They are playing a numbers game betting against you. Like the casinos in Vegas they aren't going to let anyone have numbers equal to their hand or the game gets closed. Odds always favor the house.

Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:38 pm

In my experience it has been the lowest regional wholesale value and take it or sue us.

Yes- Steve I have asked him about a policy that would pay what my rig is worth but he said not if I really want to drive it every day. So like I said, I take my chances. It doesn't really give me much incentive to throw a bunch of bread into my bus but I figure it pays me in other ways and that's enough.

Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:50 am

Just remember in many states insurance is optional. Even in NC 98% of people don't realize that you can post bond with cash or real estate holdings in place of liability insurance. Insurance is one of the few things that we pay for and hope we never have to use.

Also, your agent should be your proponent during the claims process....if you feel the settlement is not fair, talk to your agent! And no, your agent is not the person at the end of the 1-800 line with a script to read!

Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:55 am

SGKent wrote: 1977_L63H_P27 wrote: But for us volks that have buses not much better than beaters,

They use NADA as a reference. They also look at what ones are selling near you and the condition of your bus. "Not much better than a beater" would probably be the low retail minus what it would cost to get it to low retail.

I have yet to find an agreed value policy that allows daily driving or vacations. Stated is not the same as agreed. It is usually the Lessor of Stated or ACV. What USAA told me on the daily driver policy if I used it was that they really want these old cars to self insure, meaning that they don't have enough comps to really assess the risk. Funny thing how insurance companies think. Years ago my dad had a next door neighbor who was cancelled because his house got hit twice in two years by lightening in FL. They had another neighbor cancelled because they had no claims in 30 years and the insurance underwriter's charts suggested they were due for one. My 1995 Acura Legend was worth an ACV of $6300. The RL is worth an ACV of $23,000. The premiums on the RL collision and comprehensive are 20% less than the Legend was. Go figure. You can't as IMHO these people sit in rooms and count spots on the ceilings. They are playing a numbers game betting against you. Like the casinos in Vegas they aren't going to let anyone have numbers equal to their hand or the game gets closed. Odds always favor the house.

Maybe after they get medical care worked out, the government can tackle the insurance industry :P. It is sad that the government, whether local, state, or federal, mandates that we have insurance, but we can't find any that truly covers our interest. If we have to have it, make the law state that we've paid a fair premium, the insurance compant must pay a fair dividend. They are pretty much unregulated tho' and can do as they please. Again....SAD

Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:57 am

Here's an update on my situation:

1) My present insurer (GEICO) will continue insurance (they were actually suggesting two days ago that they might discontinue coverage because of the restoration!), however, they will provide no collision coverage. I would self-insure collision, which I have been doing on that vehicle for many years.

2) Progressive Direct will insure it via relatively expensive stated value policy. I have to say, I have spent considerable time speaking with Progressive, one of their adjustors, and an independent agent, and they have been very professional and straightforward.

3) An independent agent referred me to Haggerty, which I realized was a dead end, because they do not allow camping. However, at the urging of the independent agent, I did so. Sure enough, Haggerty will allow camping only if it is to/from a car show. Close, but no cigar. As an alternative, the IA writes for AProgressive, which is his second recommendation.

4) State Farm has proposed a collector/antique policy that they insist will permit camping in RV parks, which is fine by me. Vehicle must not be a primary vehicle, which is fine. I can "use the bus like a normal vehicle." The policy is very inexpensive. They insist that it is an "agreed value" and not a "stated value" policy. I have requested a copy of the policy to fully understand any limitations. Even if this policy is not an actual agreed value policy, but is a stated value policy, it is still a good value. AM Best rates State Farm higher than Progressive. State Farm wants lots of pictures. I am investigating this further.

My wife thinks that we should keep GEICO and self-insure collosion coverage. However, we have not made a decision yet, as we are still investigating State Farm. I hope to make our decision any day.

Keith

Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:15 am

I would also recommend trying Classic Collectors Insurance Company. Many of your local Independent Agents should have access to them, although I'm not sure of specific product offerings in each state. In NC, they are one of the best.