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Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:44 am

I want to build a stroker for my 66 fastback. What are the pros ans cons of these size options? Cooling, performance etc... Let me hear your opinions.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:46 am

The bigger you build, the less reliable it will be.
Going to those sizes, I would start with a new case.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:14 am

build a small stroker. 1699, 1741,1790, etc. efficient as all get out and nice power to boot. though in reality unless you plan to have some fun at the track on occasion a 1776 or 1914 is about all one would ever need. plenty of power. set up right either can get great mileage and last a loooonnnngggg time.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:36 am

luckystiff wrote: build a small stroker. 1699, 1741,1790, etc. efficient as all get out and nice power to boot. tohough in reality unless you plan to have some fun at the track on occasion a 1776 or 1914 is about all one would ever need. plenty of power. set up right either can get great mileage and last a loooonnnngggg time.

Those aren't "stroker" sizes. Those are all based on a stock crank. A Type 1 stroker needs to have a crank that is larger than a 69mm crank.

That being said, a 2110 is a great motor for a Type 3. Will run cool and have plenty of power. Keep the compression in check and buy the best heads you can afford.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:06 pm

I had a High School auto shop assistant, and had been racing and messing with Volkswagens since the early 1960's. He said once one goes past 2.0 liters with stock cooling, it has trouble cooling, and becomes the point of drop off of reliability. Think of it as a logarithmic curve: gentle until 2.0 liters, then starts dropping fast. So, one could have a 2110cc that be fine for what Brian is doing, but be sure he has done good bit of planning, and for many, it would not last as long as a 1600c.c. engine. Also, another thing to be aware of is the 92mm bore has thin walls, so not the best at displacing the heat.

Since you want "...good balance between torque and top end. Something that has some punch to it but something I can drive on short road trips. Im not going to the drags but I would like some power. ", I say define a budget. The more one takes out of the case, the less strength one has, and the more it costs. So, the larger the crankshaft and pistons, the more that has to be clearanced. Consider also that you are in Bakersfield, where it is hot an humid, and to go to L.A. or the Bay Area, you have to climb out of the bowl. This means a long run up some sleep hills, which builds heat that lingers. The harder the engine is working, the hotter it will be. This is where torque comes in: it helps climbing the hills.

An engine has more torque the more square it becomes, meaning a 85.5mm bore by 78mm stroke has more torque than stock. Take a look at this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...mp;start=0

You have read this, right: http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/t1hpeng.htm.

In the end, I agree with Lucky in building a smaller stroker (1699c.c. is the aforementioned), as it have the torque you want, the ability to go on a trip comfortably, and have real punch i.e. torque.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:10 pm

Notched wrote: luckystiff wrote: build a small stroker. 1699, 1741,1790, etc. efficient as all get out and nice power to boot. tohough in reality unless you plan to have some fun at the track on occasion a 1776 or 1914 is about all one would ever need. plenty of power. set up right either can get great mileage and last a loooonnnngggg time.

Those aren't "stroker" sizes. Those are all based on a stock crank. A Type 1 stroker needs to have a crank that is larger than a 69mm crank.

That being said, a 2110 is a great motor for a Type 3. Will run cool and have plenty of power. Keep the compression in check and buy the best heads you can afford.

1699c.c. is a stroker, as it is a 78mm stroke. :wink:

2110c.c. is 90.5mm bore by 82mm stroke, which is about the same ratio of square as the former.

Notched, have you ever run numbers with this engine? Think that is what is missing in all these discussions of engines.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:32 pm

Thanks for all the input. I have read the aircooled article. I like to glean as much info as I can out of the community. I have a person here in town talking me into a type 4 so I wanted some ideas for sticking with a type 1 :) I hadn't considered stroking the engine with a stock bore, I assumed if I was going to have the case clearenced I might as well get bigger pistions. Is there much of a cooling issue between a 2110 and a 2275?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Why are you talking yourself into a type 1...and out of a type 4? For the sizes of type 1 engines you are speaaking of here....and the associated cost and lessening of reliability....a type 4 based engine is definately worth considering. Ray

Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:16 pm

I would love a type 4. Money is the prohibiting factor. :cry: I have a stock complete type 1 now, I was going to have the case machined buy a stroker kit from brothers and a set of heads. Type 4 I would need everything, case,engine tins, mouting hardware etc... If I had a stock complete type 4 to start with it would be different. So if anyone knows anyone in the Bakersfield area let me know.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:17 pm

raygreenwood wrote: Why are you talking yourself into a type 1...and out of a type 4? For the sizes of type 1 engines you are speaaking of here....and the associated cost and lessening of reliability....a type 4 based engine is definately worth considering. Ray

bingo -- a well-tuned 2.0 Type 4 engine would be dead-dog reliable, have plenty of power/torque and be as easy to set up as a large Type 3 engine...

Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:37 pm

blankmange wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Why are you talking yourself into a type 1...and out of a type 4? For the sizes of type 1 engines you are speaaking of here....and the associated cost and lessening of reliability....a type 4 based engine is definately worth considering. Ray

bingo -- a well-tuned 2.0 Type 4 engine would be dead-dog reliable, have plenty of power/torque and be as easy to set up as a large Type 3 engine...

But, have you seen the prices?! :shock: Used to be type 4 was the cheaper option, but with type 1 engines around $2,000 and type 4 starting at $4,000... I know this from listening to a local that builds both, and loves the type 4 engine, and uses it in a good number of applications.

Since I did not remember when case clearancing was needed, I tried to find the answer, and stumbled on this:http://books.google.com/books?id=PuhW4TC-U00C&...mp;f=false. The information I have found seems clearancing is not needed until after 80mm, but B pistons could be required. Been a while since I worked for a machine shop... :oops:

Here is a couple topics that may be useful:
http://www.shoptalkforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=34&a...p;start=45
http://www.thesamba.com/vw//forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

In the end, glad this was brought up, as now I fully understand the reason for torque, and more about engines than I may never need. Think my head hurts from a day of figures and figuring... :roll: :lol:

Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:53 pm

yep... no way a 2L type 1 can live. not at all :roll: also, no chance it will be a less expensive way to go than a 2L type 4 :roll: :roll:

Try and build a 2 liter T4 with heads that flow and a performance exhaust like my mild ported T3 2110 and plan on spending double what I have into. There is NO inexpensive T4 option that gets air in and out of the engine.

I'm so tired of hearing that type 3 engines can't live with any real bump in displacement. My 1904 had over 125,000 miles on it when I pulled it. It was still running at that point, but the cylinder walls were done.

My 2110 runs cooler than a stock engine and gets almost the same MPG.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:50 pm

My 2007cc engine made it from Oregon to Missouri (for this year's Type III Invasion) and back, no issues. Tires, now those were my only issue...well, and Kansas :lol:

Get a good engine builder, have a good carb man (uh, for me that is Mr. Fye ;) ) and make sure whatever flows in can also easily flow out...meaning if you have intake work for better flow then you may have to ditch the heating system and put on an exhaust header. Speaking from experience.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:19 pm

I'm with ray and blackmange 2L type 4 all day everyday.

You just got to find a good used one, luckilly their weakness is the heads and not the bottom end.

Mine with a new raby cam/parkerized solid lifters and all the stock FI goodies, megasquirt, and coil on plugs ignition is coming in at $1500 so far. I'm even looking at bigger injectors so I can get on the E85 tip, this thing should be a fun lil motor.

BTW $2000 for a stroker doesn't sound like its going to be very reliable, sounds like a lot of short cuts are being taken.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:40 pm

vwfye wrote: yep... no way a 2L type 1 can live. not at all :roll: also, no chance it will be a less expensive way to go than a 2L type 4 :roll: :roll:

Try and build a 2 liter T4 with heads that flow and a performance exhaust like my mild ported T3 2110 and plan on spending double what I have into. There is NO inexpensive T4 option that gets air in and out of the engine.

I'm so tired of hearing that type 3 engines can't live with any real bump in displacement. My 1904 had over 125,000 miles on it when I pulled it. It was still running at that point, but the cylinder walls were done.

My 2110 runs cooler than a stock engine and gets almost the same MPG.

So, why is it cooler? I.I.R.C. you do not have a stock setup.

Air_Cooled_Nut wrote: My 2007cc engine made it from Oregon to Missouri (for this year's Type III Invasion) and back, no issues. Tires, now those were my only issue...well, and Kansas :lol:

Get a good engine builder, have a good carb man (uh, for me that is Mr. Fye ;) ) and make sure whatever flows in can also easily flow out...meaning if you have intake work for better flow then you may have to ditch the heating system and put on an exhaust header. Speaking from experience.

Yep, and I seen it drive too: thank you for the good time together with Mike, I.I.R.C., bit shook up hitting a girl while I was going about 15 20 M.P.H. on my bicycle. Dumb to skateboard the wrong way in a bike lane, especially in the dark with black cloths.

Good point about what goes in has to go out. that is why I would not stray away from stock heads: love my stock exhaust too much.

Kansas does have rolling hills, F.Y.I.. I took that route to avoid the flat lands, and something different.

supaninja wrote: I'm with ray and blackmange 2L type 4 all day everyday.

You just got to find a good used one, luckilly their weakness is the heads and not the bottom end.

Mine with a new raby cam/parkerized solid lifters and all the stock FI goodies, megasquirt, and coil on plugs ignition is coming in at $1500 so far. I'm even looking at bigger injectors so I can get on the E85 tip, this thing should be a fun lil motor.

BTW $2000 for a stroker doesn't sound like its going to be very reliable, sounds like a lot of short cuts are being taken.

Where did it say $2,000 for a stroker?

It all depends on many things. I built a new 1600c.c. with a good camshaft for $500, when folks said it could not be done under a $1,000. Now knowing what I know, probably could get it done for $400, or in the case of the first engine, I have only $150 to $200 to freshen it up, and it was over heated and water got into it.

Consider type 4 engines are also heavier. I can carry a fully equipped type 1 with oil (do not recommend it, however) , but could not do that with a type 4. The engine now has to move all that extra weight.

I think there is going to be three groups, type 1 engine folks, type 4 engine folks, and the folks that use them both. I can see where a type 4 is a good choice, but the work to put it in a type 3 is just not worth it to me, especially the rust work that needs to be done. :wink:

Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:08 pm

Adriel Rowley wrote: blankmange wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Why are you talking yourself into a type 1...and out of a type 4? For the sizes of type 1 engines you are speaaking of here....and the associated cost and lessening of reliability....a type 4 based engine is definately worth considering. Ray

bingo -- a well-tuned 2.0 Type 4 engine would be dead-dog reliable, have plenty of power/torque and be as easy to set up as a large Type 3 engine...

But, have you seen the prices?! :shock: Used to be type 4 was the cheaper option, but with type 1 engines around $2,000 and type 4 starting at $4,000... I know this from listening to a local that builds both, and loves the type 4 engine, and uses it in a good number of applications.

Since I did not remember when case clearancing was needed, I tried to find the answer, and stumbled on this:http://books.google.com/books?id=PuhW4TC-U00C&...mp;f=false. The information I have found seems clearancing is not needed until after 80mm, but B pistons could be required. Been a while since I worked for a machine shop... :oops:

Here is a couple topics that may be useful:
http://www.shoptalkforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=34&a...p;start=45
http://www.thesamba.com/vw//forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

In the end, glad this was brought up, as now I fully understand the reason for torque, and more about engines than I may never need. Think my head hurts from a day of figures and figuring... :roll: :lol:

The OP was talking about type 1 strokers, I didn't realize you were talking about 1600's. Whats so difficult about sticking a type 4 in a type 3, your the second person to say that in the last week?

Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:18 pm

supaninja wrote: Adriel Rowley wrote: blankmange wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Why are you talking yourself into a type 1...and out of a type 4? For the sizes of type 1 engines you are speaaking of here....and the associated cost and lessening of reliability....a type 4 based engine is definately worth considering. Ray

bingo -- a well-tuned 2.0 Type 4 engine would be dead-dog reliable, have plenty of power/torque and be as easy to set up as a large Type 3 engine...

But, have you seen the prices?! :shock: Used to be type 4 was the cheaper option, but with type 1 engines around $2,000 and type 4 starting at $4,000... I know this from listening to a local that builds both, and loves the type 4 engine, and uses it in a good number of applications.

Since I did not remember when case clearancing was needed, I tried to find the answer, and stumbled on this:http://books.google.com/books?id=PuhW4TC-U00C&...mp;f=false. The information I have found seems clearancing is not needed until after 80mm, but B pistons could be required. Been a while since I worked for a machine shop... :oops:

Here is a couple topics that may be useful:
http://www.shoptalkforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=34&a...p;start=45
http://www.thesamba.com/vw//forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

In the end, glad this was brought up, as now I fully understand the reason for torque, and more about engines than I may never need. Think my head hurts from a day of figures and figuring... :roll: :lol:

The OP was talking about type 1 strokers, I didn't realize you were talking about 1600's. Whats so difficult about sticking a type 4 in a type 3, your the second person to say that in the last week?

I was trying to make a point, the size does not matter. The crankshaft was $125, and for stroker, be about $200 plus $50 for clearancing if one was to go that route. :idea: Oh, I get it! You think I am saying $2,000 for a stroker! I would think it be about the same, as for the aforementioned prices. Or, am I wrong?

Well, you cannot buy an aftermarket case for a type 4 or tins, then you have to make a cooling boot. If I had $500 handed to me and told I had to use it on an engine, I be able to build a stroker from the first engine easy, whereas for a type four it get me a core.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:36 pm

Why would you need an aftermarket case for a type 4? there's tons of std/std's around. Tin's? the stock type 4 cooling fits fine in the type 3 bay, bus tins fit a little more snug then 914 tins. dude i got a 411 air duct for $40 shipped, just have to look around a little. it is an option to make the bellows mount if you got the skills and welder or buy a factory part that does the same thing. flywheels aren't a be big problem either a 215mm fits in a irs bellhousing without any modification, swingaxle with the usual clearancing. need a free floating starter from an automatic . I have a early bus header/muffler and it clears the apron.

I got my motor for $200, the heads are shot but everything else is good. Now a gasket kit for a type 4 is appearantly made of gold compared to a type 1 gasket kit.

I know the OP is trying to do this on a budget, and i'm sure if you stuff a type 1 full of chinese knockoff parts you can build it pretty damn cheap but I was under the impression the OP wanted something reliable, thats why 3 of us recommended a type 4 motor over a cheaptastic type 1 stroker.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:10 pm

My strokers are all less $ than a type 4 engine with heads that will flow like a type 1 head. If you want to compare engines with the same HP and torque, there is NO WAY the type 4 will be as cheap.

Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:12 pm

if i build a type 2110 and use a kit from brothers, am i getting "cheaptastic" stuff?