TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:06 pm

Here is a specific problem that Vanagons can have in cold weather. And a way to get moving again. With luck, this thread can stay on-topic. :lol: (lostsa luck!)

We have a cold snap here in Seattle, with ~20deg temps. As usual, my parking brake cable is frozen stuck. I have rear disc brakes, and this conversion to the Vanagon has a few flaws, two that appear in sub-freezing temperatures.

1) The caliper is positioned such that the cable housing does not slope continually downward. Consequently the cable housing has a low point that can hold water, and then it freezes to the cable like glue.

2) The return spring of the Audi calipers is marginal in its ability to return the Vanagon cables.

Assuming I'm not the only one to have this problem; here is what I did to be able to drive the car this morning. It's possible that this affects only disc-brake conversions, and that original Vanagon drum brakes don't have this problem.

I reached under the car and 'flexed' the cable housing into an "S-Shape", which cracked the ice and allowed the cable to "return" a little. I could feel the ice cracking. Had to do it about 3 times (each side), and the brake released! I have not applied the parking brake since because I know it will freeze stuck again.

In addition to the ice cracking, I'm pretty sure the plastic covering (outside the metal flex casing) was cracking too. I don't like the idea that the plastic casing is cracked, but if the dang thing is going to fill with water there is no need to keep it full, so maybe allowing it to breathe, or drain is part of the solution. The other part would be to plan ahead and lube the cable every season before it gets cold....

Hope this post helps someone! Interested to hear other ways to solve this specific brake cable problem, disc or drum.

Tom

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:03 pm

Don't have that problem in AZ but will mention that on my older non-Vanagon vehicles there is a zerk fitting on the handbrake cable housing. Sort of a length of pipe secrued to the flex housing that makes lubing the cable a 10 second task and drives out everything else, old grease, water, whatever.

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:38 pm

Living In Canada where it gets cold, my Father's words of advice when I first started driving were, "Do Not use you emergency brake when its freezing out, just leave it in gear." Good simple farmer type advice. Only time I use the e brake is on a big hill, and only above freezing.

Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:52 pm

I've already had trouble with just "leaving it in gear". Once my backpack strap pulled the gear lever into neutral as I was jumping out. I scrambled back in to hit the brake, but by then my driver door had already impacted the car parked next to me. My fault 100%, no excuses.

But I am using that method today..... I have no choice. But I won't make a habit of it, not in a hilly city like Seattle anyway!

==========

I like that idea of the cable is filled with grease, then water can't get in. If it does, you pump it out. As long as the grease itself doesn't 'freeze'.

There are lots of cable lubers on the market, but they all appear to be the same motorcycle cable luber, which can't possibly fit on a vanagon brake cable, it would have to be about double the size. They all look identical to this one: http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0182

Pretty sure I could build one with a zerk that epoxy'd to the cable housing. Thanx for the tip!

Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:30 pm

In case it is useful... how it looks:

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:21 pm

Ahwahnee wrote: In case it is useful... how it looks:

"I did not know that" ( Johnny Carson :) ) would that fitting be on an 82 Vanagon...might be worth squirting some grease down into it. California is cold now(30-40's) but not nearly as cold as other parts of the States.
Good tip Ahwahnee, thankx

Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:57 pm

Sodo, didn't we discuss this same thing a year ago and still didn't come up with a solution? :?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=390169&highlight=parking+cable+freezing

Like you, I have the Smallcar rear discs, a great upgrade for typical driving. The e-brake leaves a bit to be desired though. First the holding power is not as strong as the drum set-up, and secondly the damn thing freezes in cold weather and no amount of lubing will get the return spring to release the caliper.

As for the frozen cable, try shooting some WD-40 or PB Blaster down the cable sheathing. I've not had any issue with a frozen cable since doing this.

As for the caliper not releasing, the bottom line is the return spring is not strong enough. It works fine on an A4, but the cable on the Vanagon is just too long or has too much friction. I've talked about putting on a new spring, but haven't spent much time looking for an appropriate one. In the meantime I've been using my leveling blocks as chocks, and using the parking brake only in steep situations. I can still reach behind the wheel and manually release it all the way once I hit a flat area where I can curb the wheels, or I leave it in gear and turn off the engine.

Until a stronger spring is found, these are the simplest methods I can think of.

Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:24 pm

Hey Sodo and 1621:

Those disk brakes you have are used on the Audi URS4 and URS6 cars made from 1992 to 1997. I am in an enthusiast's group for these cars and I can assure you this problem is not unknown to those in snowy parts of North America.

Many have problems with the calipers themselves getting corroded in the area where the operating shaft for the parking brake enters the caliper. Cables are not so big a problem as the Audi design is fairly good, but the return springs are so weak that any drag from corrosion or cable drag results in the parking brake dragging a bit - - or a lot!

A much stronger return spring is needed. If you guys find a solution, my Syncro (soon to be disk-brake fitted) and my URS4 will thank you. If I stumble upon a solution, I'll post it.

For any of you guys rebuilding or lubing these calipers, see this URL for an exploded view and rebuild procedure:

http://forums.justfourrings.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1393&start=0

Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:25 pm

RCB wrote: ...would that fitting be on an 82 Vanagon...

Sorry if I misled you, I was just showing it as an example of such a fitting on a non-Vanagon. Actually it is a 1959 Triumph. Part #30 in this explosive view:

http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29148

Seems like a crafty sort could do something similar to effectively grease a recalcitrant cable.

Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:03 pm

Up here inthe frozen north we (at least I) rarely use the parking brake int he winter - far as I'm concerned, its just looking for trouble

Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:11 pm

Sodo - Thanks!!

Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:49 pm

Mah gud frend to me, 'Did you have an emergency?'
Me to mah gud frend, 'Hum, no...'
Mah gud frend to me, 'Then why did you apply the emergency brake?'
Conversation I had, first winter in Colorado, brought on after applying E/brake and subsequent freezing....
Good luck and don't eat the yellow snow either (that was another conversation.) :lol:

Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:14 pm

he he..... :lol: :lol: Mah wife (who is a gud friend) said to me after an 'incident':
"If you would have set the parking brake none of this would have happened."
She didn't say anything else, and didn't need to, either. No excuses.
(----> this was not during freezing weather though).

I've parked many times without using the parking brake, and I still do it judiciously, but I put it in reverse, which the gear lever is farther 'out of the way'.

I'm still interested in solving the problem, attempting to make my Vanagon more like a normal car (like having a normal parking brake). Every time I have to explain why she can't drive it, explaining some quirk (as if it's tolerable) I get the eye-roll.... :roll: :roll: :roll:

Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:48 am

Sodo, using reverse because it is out of the way is very good advice.....and 'judiciously,' most certainly!

Fri Feb 09, 2024 6:30 pm

Hey SODO!

Found your old post while trying to figure out my identical problem. I guessed it had to be the cables. Only way I got going was to pry the levers on the brakes enough to release the balls on cable ends (thankfully I didn't have the brakes on super hard). Once cables were released the brakes disengaged immediately.

Was camped in Yakima Canyon where it got pretty nippy -- after all our warmer damper weather here.

By the time I got home, everything was fine so I could not positively diagnose it.

I've got the newest GoWesty disc brakes on mine.

Cheers!

Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:18 am

This PSA on why not go down grade your rear brakes to discs brought to you by Ferdinand.

Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:38 am

My drums froze too, and if they did it was really hard to thaw them.

I also don't use my parking brake in the winter either unless I know things are dry.

Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:42 am

gertiebob wrote: Hey SODO!

Found your old post while trying to figure out my identical problem. I guessed it had to be the cables.

Gertie it's great you're getting out! We're planning a WA Scablands trip this February.

Do your brake cables "dip down" such that they may "hold water"?

Are you able to post a pic of your brake cables?
I'm curious if the plastic sheathing shows evidence of heating, due to "starter amperage".

Sat Feb 10, 2024 2:53 pm

RGS Paul wrote: My drums froze too, and if they did it was really hard to thaw them.

I also don't use my parking brake in the winter either unless I know things are dry.

Our rig is a garage queen seldom driven in winter. HOWEVER, I did drive the Westy way up Northern BC to visit my son and his family in early January. There was copious salting and sanding of the roads up there, and here, in Southern BC, there had been chemical salting of the roads with this very sticky anti-ice chamical (they don't use sand down here). Both of these rust-causing materials got everywhere, including, apparently, the rear drum brakes. I washed the vehicle before garaging it again, but the material in the drum brakes caused them over the next few days to chemically bond the brake shoes on the driver side to the brake drum. This happened remarkably quickly, despite the dry, above-freezing garage. The bonding was so strong that it took multiple attempts in granny gear to get the drum unstuck. If the vehicle had been sitting longer (only about a week), I would have mechanically disassembled or removed the drum, but since only days had passed, I was content to use engine power to break the bond.

Our Audi cars have the same rear brake caliper used in many of the Vanagon rear-brake disc kits. I resorted to using a stronger return spring on the Audi vehicles, plus regular greasing of the parking brake cable. These cars also see very limited salt exposure, yet still release the parking brake only reluctantly. It's not a stellar design. :(

Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:41 am

Howesight wrote: I washed the vehicle before garaging it again, but the material in the drum brakes caused them over the next few days to chemically bond the brake shoes on the driver side to the brake drum. This happened remarkably quickly, despite the dry, above-freezing garage. The bonding was so strong that it took multiple attempts in granny gear to get the drum unstuck. If the vehicle had been sitting longer (only about a week), I would have mechanically disassembled or removed the drum, but since only days had passed, I was content to use engine power to break the bond.

Oh this reminds me of a 'fun' time too. I used to parallel park on the street outside the condo I rented with my roommates. In the summer our neighbors would water their yard excessively and water would run off into the gutter on the side of the road, right under the van… I could walk to work and the creek at that time, and I think we carpooled for groceries a few times, so the van sat at least a few weeks. When I went to leave one day the passenger side drum was firmly stuck in place! I had to take everything apart on the side of the street to free it. I learned not to use the parking brake at that house in the summer either. At least I was at home.