TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:30 am

OK
I have a question. If I built a stream liner for the 1 club with two 36hp motors, would it be legal for the class?
I finally finished my English wheel at work and want to build something unusual and I think this could be it.

Casey

Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:38 am

http://www.ultimateaircooled.com/landspeed.html

Everything in the rules refer to engine ... not engines.

Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:52 am

earthquake wrote: OK
I have a question. If I built a stream liner for the 1 club with two 36hp motors, would it be legal for the class?
I finally finished my English wheel at work and want to build something unusual and I think this could be it.

Casey

Yes ! ! !

Take a look at http://www.ultimateaircooled.com/landspeed.html for "1" Club guidelines

Burly

Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:09 pm

I need to clarify a little since ClearSurf referenced ' the engine' , not the engines.

The "1" Club is the wide open 36hp Challenge category. In esssence, attaching a second engine to the first engine is like adding a second supercharger or any other device to increase speed to the base 36hp and thats why it qualifies for "1" Club recognition(just get your car above 100 mph and take home the hat!).

That being said, a streamliner is NOT as street legal car and would have to be built to all the additional safety standards mandated by the USFRA and the SCTA/BNI, for the engine size streamliner class it would run in on the LONG course. Much more stringent rules and for good reason, as the speed potential is exponential to the aerodynamics a streamliner provides. A full fire suit(top to bottom) along with a full fire system would be needed as well.

So with extra power comes added weight. All must be factored in.

My VW streamliner concept circa the early seventies. With todays knowledge, the front wheels would no longer be in pontoons outside the body but tucked into the front nose section

Todays streamliners are slender and smooth. This is one of the Vesco families two record holding liners for comparison.

Personally, I hope you put that english wheel to good use and build the car. A 36hp based streamliner, how kool would that be.

Burly

Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:37 pm

It would not be anything as fancy as that, I was thinking more like a old drop tank car but a little cleaner and flat bottomed. I would not be able to drive it because I'm too big [6'5" 340lbs] so I would have to find a driver.
I'm thinking about how I would make the connection between motors, one woodruff key on the crank snout would not be enough. Can you flip the ring gear and diff in a IRS trans like you can in a swing axle? or would I have to flip the trans up-side down and make a pump to lube the gears? I would like to stick with as many VW parts as possible.

Casey

Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:32 pm

Earthquake, if the IRS is an early one, with both sideplates removeable, then yes, you can flip the ring and pinion for mid-engine mounting. I don't have any ideas for the coupling but I have a friend who just mounted two alloy Buick V8's together for a rod and the coupler has proven to be the weak point. That said, go for a properly designed coupling method.

This is Dick Beiths 1963 lakester with a Pepco Supercharged 36hp motor.

This is a big block (late VW) lakester built by the late Ron Benham and driven by Burke LeSage in the late seventies.

Below is info on big fiberglass lakester bodies(in case you don't want to hammer out your own) and the supplier is located next door to you in Salinas, Utah, right alongside I-70 and just east of I-15.

Length-------12' 6"
Diameter----36"
Spacing at 1' increments:

0 / 1-18.5" / 2-25.5" / 3-31.0" / 4-34.5" / 5-35.5" / 6-35.5" / 7-34.0" / 8-30.5" / 9-25.0" / 10-18.0" / 11-12.5" / 12-7.5" / 12.5-0"

This is a larger belly tank body than used by Dick Beith back in 62 and 63 and two VW engines would be completely enclosed inside this body. Looking at photos of Dicks lakester, you will see the VW engines valve covers stick out and through the body. This body would be ideal for dual enclosed engines or a single of V-8 size.

The bodies sell for $2000.00 US each and can be "stacked" in multiples for reduced shipping costs.

Additional information on Waynes fiberglass lakester bodies can be found at:

www.p38-droptank.com or you can email Wayne at [email protected] .

http://www.rodnrace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=99 2nd supplier

I hope this is helpful. In either case, you are close to the salt at Bonnenville. Come join us this year even if you don't have a car to race.

Burly

Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:17 pm

Burly
For the coupler I was thinking about two rear U-joint yokes of a Ford 8.8 drive shaft, it has a four bolt pattern that will fit on one of the heavy steel pulleys and bolt it to a stock flywheel with the ring gear turned off, I don't think two 36hp motors will put too much stress on the U-joint, motors would not have more then about 50-60 horse power each at first. I would need to machine at least two more key ways in the crank snout and broach cut the pulley to match. Do you think one starter would start two motors? I have heard that a 6v starter with a 12v solenoid has a lot of torque.

Tell your friend with the Buick motors that there was two short blocks on craigslist here in Vegas pretty cheap recently.

Casey

Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:12 pm

It sounds like you have a lot more technical savvy than I so I would defer to your selection. Your idea appears to have a little 'wiggle' room which is a problem my friend does not have and is contending with.

Please keep up posted on how things are going. Your project is going to be very interesting.

May the Speed be with you..............

Burly

Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:10 pm

Has any body ever done a flat bottom tear drop shape car before? I think it would be cool to build one with the drive wheels about two feet apart, totaly enclosed within the body, same with the fronts but further apart.
Are motorcycle tires legal on the salt on four wheel vehicles? Can you use Goodyear "Drag Fronts" on the salt? they go over 200MPH on the drag strip? I have never been involved with land speed type racing, I have been involved in off road, Auto X, and a little drag racing so this is all new to me. Sorry for all the questions.

Casey

Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:47 pm

Casey

I would caution on a flat bottom, teardrop shaped car(like a Bug). The result is a wing and a wing provides 'lift' which makes the car fly. Not good! Square streamliners with the wheels tucked inside as you describe are how most liners are built today and have proven very aero efficient.

Front wheels can be covered in liners ! This I believe would qualify as a lakester since both front and rear wheels are exposed.

Also, Good Year front runners are common on both front AND rear on many Bonneville racers including 36hp Challenge bugs. Avoid motorcycle tires on cars.

You seem serious in your interest so I would reccommend you go to:

www.saltflats.com

and follow the the USFRA and SCTA/BNI links to threads that can give you more specific answers to your questions. And please PM me with your email address and I will get you on the 36hp Challenge newsletter mailing list.

And I will continue trying to answer any questions I can.

Thanx for your interest..............

Burly

Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:29 pm

Casey,here is an example of the 'home style' engineering you see at Bonneville. This is on a Hayabusa powered streamliner.

Home made wheels and front steering, off set for more slender air penetration.

Burly

Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:58 pm

I remember that blue streamliner well, reminded me of a Bugatti with that color and wheels, like a Type 35B on steroids.. I think it was called "Team Smoke It" or something like that...
There was also a severely choopped Ghia, lite blue and orange, that made runs at Bonneville way back when... and the old Green Ghia of Larry Monreal, of Larry's Old Volks Home... I think that one might have ended up with a rabbit engine in it, IIRC

Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:08 pm

Correct on all accounts. The Team Smoke It lakester and the chopped blue/orange Ghia were from the same folks, the Benham family.

Burly

Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:55 pm

That square body design might be the place to start for a first time build, the body would sure be easier to make. Do S-Liners have any suspension or are they ridged mount? do you need a chute for cars under a certain speed? I guess I should get a rule book.

Casey

Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:05 pm

Most liners have some sort of suspension, a few do not but thats a rough ride and jiggles the eyeballs.

If the class you are building for has a record of 175 mph or higher you will need to have at least one chute(yes, get a rulebook), even if your car never goes that fast.

The SCTA will help you build the car correctly by providing you with a single experienced inspector/builder to call regarding any questions that come up. They are extremely helpful because they want you to be safe and have success.

Tootaloo

Burly

Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:13 am

Dave wrote: ... and the old Green Ghia of Larry Monreal, of Larry's Old Volks Home... I think that one might have ended up with a rabbit engine in it, IIRC

Brief digression...you might have missed this Dave: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4794470

Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:53 pm

earthquake wrote: It would not be anything as fancy as that, I was thinking more like a old drop tank car but a little cleaner and flat bottomed.

Hi Casey, any Steamliner (wheels inside bodywork) or Lakester (wheels outside bodywork) is likely to be pretty fancy and give you something to practice your english wheel skills on.

Dick Beith built a very narrow flat bottom, flat topped, but tear drop shaped streamliner back in the 1990's (Big Block Chevy powered). The metal work on that car was incredible, pictures didn't do it justice!

check out the following links:
http://www.landracing.com/

several streamiliner build threads w/pics that I highly recommend: http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bonneville-Index.html

Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:41 pm

Coupler idea:

"Plug" the engines into where the axels come out of the tranny (wouldn't be too hard to make something that would bolt up to an IRS CV axel joint). One would have to be driven by the flywheel side and one by the crank pulley side (so they're going in the same direction). Then you just have to plug what was the input shaft (now output) into the input shaft of a second tranny via another relatively simple coupler.

The VW engine is much wider than it is deep, so you're not adding a lot to the stock width. Additionally, you go from a 4 gear tranny to a bicycle-like 16 speed tranny. It would require a standard-style shifter setup and a mid-engine style shifter setup.

Does that make sense? Here's an ultra-crappy paint sketch.

Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:15 pm

spectre6000 wrote:

The World is not yet prepared for such awesomeness :D

Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:10 pm

I'm chatting about this with a friend and he suggests that having the flywheels like that would cause balance issues. It would also make the car (not a wide wheel base) lean to one side slightly (only enough to be an issue in the event of a turn). His suggestion is to reverse the cam have the engine fire backwards. It would also create a more natural balance (in the same way the four opposed cylinders naturally balance each other) and make for a relatively smooth running car as a bonus. It also brings the flywheels inboard to focus the center of gravity for a better handling car (given the narrow wheel base).

Additionally, this setup would require making a new weight setup for the reverse firing distributor, running both off the same (v8) distributor, or some fancy electronic ignition setup (I'm not even remotely familiar with whatever rule set we're dealing or not dealing with here so that may be out of bounds).