TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:49 pm

I'm finally ready to order them and I have one more question about them. Does anyone out there know how many degrees they will adjust?

My wheels look to be about positive three degrees on my swing axle, and I looking to to adjust them to a negative two degrees.

Does anyone know if this is possible or not with the average adjustable spring plates?

I want to know one way or the other if they'll do what I want before I waste the time and money on them.

Thanks, Richard

Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:18 pm

First thing, when you install the new spring plates, they may or may not be be indexed just the same setting as the pair you remove. Very probably not.

Second, the degrees of deviation of the spring plate from vertical does not equate directly to degrees of positive or negative wheel camber. The arcs are on different axes, and have different radius. In other words, changing the spring plate angle 1 degree, does not change the wheel camber 1 degree.

What you're asking is, will the screw adjustment compensate for any amount of improper installation of the spring plate? The answer to that is, No.

You will need to install the adjustable spring plate as close as you can to the correct spline setting, then if you do that, Then, Yes, the screw adjustment will get it perfect, simply by turning the screw. If it settles with use, turn the screw some more. If you gain a few pounds, turn the screw some more.

Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:17 pm

First - why the need for adj spring plates? I'm well-aware of what they are, but it sounds as though your existing torsion bars may be weak/tweaked/out of adjustment?

Second - if you go forward with the purchase, are you buying cheap Chinese-made plates?

Curious... are you simply masking another problem?

bnc

Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:16 am

You're right, there is nothing you can do with adjustable spring plates that can't be done with the standard type. The difference with adjustable plates is, it won't need to be re-done several times to get it right once.

Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:06 am

You will have to do the same amount of work to install the adjustable plates as to just adjust what you have.
Set your buggy on four jack stands with plenty of height to work on the plates. Get zero degrees on the center of the tunnel. Disassemble the rear so as to get a reading on your plates at un-sprung rest. Should be’ right side 21.5, left about 22. You do have an older pan so these numbers may be a little different. Just make a note of your starting numbers. I always reset starting at 17 degrees on right and 17.5 on the left. This usually sets me up just fine. Don’t forget to replace the bushings. Use rubber. The urethane units SUCK! One other thing. Be careful if you buy the spring plate compressor that’s on the market today. It’s not very safe. We built our own utilizing a 5” hydraulic ram and some heavy U channel. It makes short work of the job.

Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:20 am

Hey Tom do you have pictures of this in action? If it is proprietary info dont worry about posting it. Thanks. Always looking to make life easier with new tools. kustoms wrote: Be careful if you buy the spring plate compressor that’s on the market today. It’s not very safe. We built our own utilizing a 5” hydraulic ram and some heavy U channel. It makes short work of the job.

Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:41 am

GTBRADLEY wrote: Hey Tom do you have pictures of this in action? If it is proprietary info dont worry about posting it. Thanks. Always looking to make life easier with new tools. kustoms wrote: Be careful if you buy the spring plate compressor that’s on the market today. It’s not very safe. We built our own utilizing a 5” hydraulic ram and some heavy U channel. It makes short work of the job.

I did on the old computer. We are trying to save them. I will take some shots of it tomorrow. Today I have to deal with snow. :x

I took a sec. here it is. Keith may have the video of it in action.

Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:21 am

Thanks Tom. That's just what the doctor ordered.

Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:32 am

A floor jack works great too, and has many other uses! :D

Just loop a chain from the shock mounting bolt on the shock tower, down around the jack and back up to the shock bolt. Jack the spring plate against the chain to control the "springing" while undoing the torsion bar bolts. Pry the sping plate out a little over the stop, then release the pressure on the jack. Works like a champ - although I'm thinking a little more cumbersome than Tom's neat tool.

Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:39 am

Extremely detailed tutorial with pictures on how to reindex of spring plate....

http://www.mydune-buggy.com/home/dl_files/reartorsionsetup.pdf

IF you can't get it done off the writeup, you need to stay on couch...

Dale

Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:04 am

Sweeeeet :lol: Dale M. wrote:

IF you can't get it done off the writeup, you need to stay on couch...

Dale

Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:09 am

GS guy wrote: A floor jack works great too, and has many other uses! :D

Just loop a chain from the shock mounting bolt on the shock tower, down around the jack and back up to the shock bolt. Jack the spring plate against the chain to control the "springing" while undoing the torsion bar bolts. Pry the sping plate out a little over the stop, then release the pressure on the jack. Works like a champ - although I'm thinking a little more cumbersome than Tom's neat tool.

I used a floor jack and chain when I rebuilt mine after the wreck. Worked great. Thought about adjustable spring plates, but the process of adjusting the stock ones was not nearly as bad as I had been lead to believe.

Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:26 am

With my set up I can release the pressure and then reinstall again in about a minute and a half. That's with an electric pump. You can use the ram with a port-a-power though. It will take longer but it is a lot faster and safer. The tool in the tutorial is the evil POS I eluded to. We had two fail. one was catastrophic. No, nobody got hurt, thank God.

Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:41 am

hey, I love that tool, I'll be making one this week..

I have over 40 yrs using a quality floor jack,, That has had it's moments.

The nasty on using a chian it tears up any nice finish it touchs,, a good strap works as well...

I finally became smart enough , when doing the short spring plates (irs) to bolt another old plate onto the plate being reset ,, makes for a better leverage,,

Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:45 am

Thanks for the replies everyone. First of all the P.O. of the buggy had it set up for off road use strictly and the rear wheels were adjusted to have major neg. camber. As I'm not mechanically inclined with some of the more major repairs, I let the local VW mechanic work on them and I try to look, help and learn when possible. Last year we tried to adjust them but we couldn't get the inner torsion bars to come loose so we adjusted the outers only (two splines each). This left me where I'm at presently, at about three degrees pos. camber (just estimating). My pan is a '56, and only has 56,000 original miles on it and is in very good shape, but I have no idea what has been done to what by the P.O.. I'm assuming the rear torsion bars are the original and the thought crosses my mind that they possibly haven't been broken loose since it was built as the P.O. may have previously adjusted the outers only as well. But as I said, I'm not for sure, but anyway they seem to be in good shape.

I wish I knew a way to get them loose that wouldn't be a big production, another member told me to drive one in and knock the other out from behind, but as mentioned on an earlier post, there are 40 inner splines and 44 outer splines, so I imagine that wouldn't work.

I was told by other members on here that if I were to use the adjustable spring plates I could adjust the camber without having to remove the inner torsion bars. The local mechanic is an old timer and recently retired and he is also set in his ways and don't necessarily like to work on dune buggies period, in other words he is very selective about what he will work on or do. He has done many torsion bar adjustments in the past and has the tools (homemade) but doesn't necessarily like to mess with them now and he doesn't want to go through the hassle getting the inners on mine to break loose. He has also never messed with the adjustable spring plates before and as he has only recently heard of them he don't know much about them. We were hoping they would make it easier to adjust mine where I want them (2 degrees neg. camber) without having to bust the inner torsion bars loose.

There are no other mechanic around me that are able to do the work other than the old timer, so I'm stuck with him, and as I'm a stroke victim myself with only one good arm, I'm not able to do it myself. Therefor I'm depending on the mechanic and whatever he'll do to try and fix it and as I said previously, he likes the idea of using the adjustable plates, which we both hope will be the easiest way.

So here's where I'm at, will the adjustable spring plates do what I need them to do or not?

I don't like the idea of using cheap Chinese after market parts, but I not in a position of doing much anything else

Thanks again, Richard

Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:19 am

Sounds like you need a new mechanic. The bars should come out with relative ease, not that they wont give you a fight some times. The only time I ever had a problem was when water got in there. Perhaps that is what happen when the PO went off roading.To be honest, You should still be able to do what you have to do without pulling the bars. Anyway, Is there anyone in this guys aria that can take a look at his buggy. He really needs the help.

Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:19 am

Sounds like they'd work for what you want them for to me...

Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:33 am

I understand - I would suggest checking with Swayaway.com. They make good stuff - the range of adjustment is 2" (+/- 1"). If you can determine how much you need to go (theres a chart on hear somewhere with spline and angle change) - this may get you where you need to be or darn close. If the bars are rusted in the center, its probably going to be next to impossible to remove them. I had that on an outer end and beating, PB blaster, heat wouldnt break it loose. This seems like your only option.

If I were in your shoes, I would do the math - see how close I would be and then do it - each outer spline change is about 2" and you can adjust an inch with the plate - so worse case you will be within an inch of where you want to be. For the rear of a car, that's pretty darn close. Just make sure you get plates that are correct for your car.

Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:07 am

andk5591 wrote: I understand - I would suggest checking with Swayaway.com. They make good stuff.

How kool is this!?!
Its from Swayaway. Thanks andk5591.

http://swayaway.com/TechRoom_VWguides.php
One thing to remember about the chart. The fiberglass buggy is a lot lighter then the beetle or rails.

Quote: Suggested VW Preload Angles for Sway-A-Way Torsion Bars
Instructions: Before taking apart the suspension, level the car and measure and record the spring plate angle for later reference. The spring plate angle is measured with no pre load on the torsion bar. Find the new bar diameter and pre load angle in the chart. Use the pre load angle from the table for setting the new bars to get stock ride height.

Application Stock Preload Angle
Bug, up to 1960, 24 11/16” long bar, 24 mm diameter 13
Bug, 1961-1968, 21 ¾” long bar, 22 mm diameter 16 1/2
Bug, 1969 & up, 26 9/16” long bar, 22 mm diameter 20 1/2
Type 3, all, 26 9/16” long, 23.5 mm diameter 23 1/2

NOTES: These values are approximate. The angle reference is the top edge of the spring plate from horizontal down with no pre load on the torsion bar. All angles are calculated to maintain stock ride height. The ride height changes by 1” for each 3 1/2 degrees of pre load.
EXAMPLE: If you want to lower the car by 1”, reduce the table pre load by 3.5 degrees.

Diameter 21 ¾” 24 11/16” 26 9/16”
22 mm 16.52 19.07 20.71
23 mm 13.83 15.96 17.33
24 mm 11.67 13.46 14.62
25 mm 9.91 11.44 12.42
26 mm 8.47 9.78 10.61
27 mm 7.28 8.41 9.13
28 mm 6.3 7.27 7.89
29 mm 5.47 6.32 6.86
30 mm 4.78 5.52 5.99

Approximate Wheel Rates

Diameter 21.75 LB/IN 24.68 LB/IN 26.56 LB/IN
22 122.85 106.44 98.03
23 146.75 127.15 117.11
24 173.99 150.74 138.84
25 204.85 177.48 163.47
26 239.65 207.63 191.24
27 278.7 241.46 222.4
28 322.34 279.27 257.22
29 370.91 321.36 295.98
30 424.78 368.03 338.97
31 484.31 419.61 386.47

VW Torsion Bar Rates (in LB/ *of Twist)

Bar Diameter 1000 Series21 3/4" 1100 Series 24 11/16" 1200 Series 26 9/16"
20mm 401 339 317
21mm 488 413 385
22mm 598 497 464
23mm. 702 593 554
24mm 832 703 657
25mm 979 828 773
26mm 1145 968 904
27mm 1333 1126 1052
28mm 1651 1303 1217
29mm 1774 1499 1400
30mm 2031 1716 1603

Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:02 am

"...another member told me to drive one in and knock the other out from behind, but as mentioned on an earlier post, there are 40 inner splines and 44 outer splines, so I imagine that wouldn't work."

It does work because you only need to knock the bar in an inch or so (might be a couple inches, but not much more than that) before the other one comes out of the center section. For example, if you drive the passenger's side bar in, the driver's side bar will pop out of the center section and you can remove it from the driver's side. Then you pull the passenger's side bar out the same place you put it in - the passenger's side. Only it probably won't want to come, so you might need to get a suitable metal rod to drive it out from the driver's side, but at least it should come out easier. The only fear I would have is knocking the splined center section loose from all the hammering, and possibly damaging the torsion bar you are hammering on (a block of wood would help a lot).

Be sure to grease up the splines when you re-install the bars. In fact, SAW recommends you coat the entire bar with grease to repel moisture and prevent rust.

I also want to make sure we are using the same terms. You said that the PO had the car set up for off-roading, resulting in major negative camber, but an off-road car normally would have a lot of positive camber. Here's the skinny:

Positive Camber = the wheels look like this: \ /
Negative Camber = the wheels look like this: / \

Just making sure we're all on the same page.

I have a set of SAW 24mm bars in my buggy, and I think they are about perfect. My pan is a '72, so they are the long bars. The extra 2mm thickness really helped with the extra weight I put in the buggy when I go camping. I also have a set of SAW spring plates, although mine aren't adjustable. The quality of all the parts from SAW is fantastic. I went with the yellow urethane bushings, which were recommended by the guys at McKenzies. The yellow ones are a harder compound than the others and don't squeak very much at all. I also used the special grease the guys recommended.

Lee