TheSamba.com :: View topic - replica kdf 82e Raising to correct height

Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:54 pm

Hi all I've raised this question on VW166 forum and also been pointed to this forum!

What is the cheapest/most effective method of raising the height of a 1950's beetle when coverting to a kdf 82e?

So far I have:

"If you use bus parts you must to use a pre '55 split bus gearbox and rear axles including the reduction boxes..Also the front spindles are the right height and can be made to fit,they are chunkier than Kubel ones but do work well. If you can get hold of original Kubel front Stub axles all the better...they will fit onto your Oval front beam....Pre '55 items are not too easy to come by these days but you might be lucky..Look on the Samba.com..You can also buy shaped rear Spring plates that give you lift and not bother with reduction boxes at all...they are a big favourite with the Split Bus people looking to squeeze more MPH out of old bangers. You will be able to use the Oval gearbox....You can also turn the existing spring plates down a notch to give more height..This may effect your rear wheel camber a little..Hope this is of some help."

and:

"still, there´s another possibility if you don´t need the original "looks". Use a complete rolling chassis
of a 181 VW thing and install beetle floorpans (because thing and Karmann Ghia both use the wide floors) 181 chassis are kinda cheap on ebay, 200 to 400 Euros and you save a lot of working hours.
(plus 181 already come with reduction gears and raised front axle)Then you bolt on the split body and there ya´go !
( ...don´t know if you can bolt on your oval engine on that tranny, you might need another clutch etc..ask the engine experts)
p.s. actually with the thing front axle the car is a little too high in the front, you might "lower" it a bit to have the right stance"

So it sounds like spring plates may be the answer?

Cheers Mike

Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:20 pm

Barndoor parts would make it look more like an 82 chassis.
I have NOS barndoor spindles if you're interested in travelling that path
Don't reindex the plates for lift or you might need training-wheels.

if you're on a budget go w/ the 181 balljoint and irs the rear.

Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:32 pm

If you want the correct camber in the rear, you'll need the Barndoor RGBs. I hear that Thing rear control arms are also wider and stick out a little further. Aussie Country Buggy front spindles would be the easiest way to get the front to the proper height, but good luck finding a set.

Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:12 am

Mike,
Hallo Luft Komraden! I too have done the FJ impression. I have at the present time a 59 Beetle that I am building to a 82E. For my front beam, I had the front beam cut and installed adjusters to raise and lower the front end. Of couse you probably will not want to cut your front beam. So, you could go with new made spindles that are raised. This would probably be the least evasive way to your original front end. For the rear, the best would be to get a barndoor tranny as mention before. These will bolt right in. Trouble is.....finding one and then having it rebuilt, if needed. Over here in the US, I have found some at the 500.00 mark, then you have the rebuild cost. If you use a later model bus, up to a 67, the axles are longer and will stick out 1.5" both sides. So the wheels will not be tucked under the fenders. With you being in the UK, you might be able to find a barndoor tranny. Good Luck
mit freundlichen Grüßen, Allan

Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:39 pm

allanb4570 wrote: Mike,
Hallo Luft Komraden! I too have done the FJ impression. I have at the present time a 59 Beetle that I am building to a 82E. For my front beam, I had the front beam cut and installed adjusters to raise and lower the front end. Of couse you probably will not want to cut your front beam. So, you could go with new made spindles that are raised. This would probably be the least evasive way to your original front end. For the rear, the best would be to get a barndoor tranny as mention before. These will bolt right in. Trouble is.....finding one and then having it rebuilt, if needed. Over here in the US, I have found some at the 500.00 mark, then you have the rebuild cost. If you use a later model bus, up to a 67, the axles are longer and will stick out 1.5" both sides. So the wheels will not be tucked under the fenders. With you being in the UK, you might be able to find a barndoor tranny. Good Luck
mit freundlichen Grüßen, Allan
Actually newly made raised spindles will cost as much as barndoor spindles. Nobody manufactures raised linkpin spindles, only combo-links designed for bajas.
And all that is needed from the early trans are its axles & redux boxes, not the entire crashbox.
Later redux's will work too, but with adapter plates.

Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:41 am

Gute Tag Alle

These are really interesting posts and I'm learning a lot...never try and raise a Beetle.... LOL

Seriously I will have to have a think about all these possibilities and do a bit of investigation into parts availability!

I thought the hard bit would be installing split window....

Mike

Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:16 pm

I used redux boxes from a '60 bus on my type 82 replica...

It was a lot of work. If you can get a set from a barndoor, it's really just a bolt-on. That's what I would do if I were to do it again.

Best wishes!

Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:09 pm

I have in the past used various methods to raise the ground height on Beetles with mixed results . At the time , I had no idea that there was such a thing as a Typ 82E .
The first was a '57 Sun Roof with an " Adjust-a-Drop " to raise the front axle and a '65 Bus transaxle with adapter plates . It worked OK , but the higher the front end was adjusted , the stiffer the front suspension became . The rear spring plates had to be re-indexed to bring the camber back down and it used Ford Econoline shocks , this set-up worked fine and had the typical " Kubel Hop " if accelerating too fast in first gear . With 10" rims in the rear and 6" in the front and the biggest snow tires I could find , and a 1600 single port engine , the combination would go anywhere , sand , snow , mud , it didn't seem to matter .
I am currently building up the chassis for a Typ 82E clone based on a '56 sedan . I have collected Barndoor spindles and Kublewagen rear axle housings as well as lever action Split rear shocks . I plan to use a later tunnel housing full synchro transaxle because they are a bit more rugged than a crash box or split case . The spindles only require new link pin bushings to be made in order to fit the stock trailing arms .
While I am committed to this path because I spent considerable time and money to collect and build what I have , I would not go this way if I was starting it today . Since this is a clone / repro anyway , originality is not all that important to me .
I have since found that the Typ 181 Thing , especially the early ones with transaxle reduction boxes would be near perfect and probably a lot cheaper and less work in the long run . They are reasonably cheap and easy to find and only need the floor pans ( which are usually rotted anyway ) to be replaced with Beetle pans , otherwise it is just about a straight bolt on , and even have wide five bolt patter brake drums . ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:34 am

You did some thinking to mount those levers. What are those from?

Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:58 am

fallschirmjager wrote: Gute Tag Alle

These are really interesting posts and I'm learning a lot...never try and raise a Beetle.... LOL

Seriously I will have to have a think about all these possibilities and do a bit of investigation into parts availability!

I thought the hard bit would be installing split window....

Mike

the bus parts are available.
Just watchout for spun bearings . More common than not , on the stuff laying around

Rancho had the early redux boxes/axles & I scored NOS Barndoor spindles from Germany. But I also bought a set of decent used ones ... so the NOS set might be for sale.

Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:18 pm

The BD frontspindles need new bushings for the linkpins as the type-1 linkpins are narrower and shorter than the BD linkpins. Otherwise they basically are "Bolt-on" too.

Here's some measurements for you about Type-1 frontbeams vs. Barndoor beams.

I have now compared Type-1 spindles with my barndoor spindles:

Linkpin c-c measurement:
Type-1 spindles, 132mm
BD spindles, 138mm

Beam tube c-c measurements so far:
Type-1, 120mm
Barndoor, appr. 139mm

Difference on linkpin distance is then 6mm and torsionbar pivotpoint distance is 29mm...

Strange geometry on the type-1.... Not parallell as stock either...?

The Barndoor seems to be parallell though..

From here: The Kommander

In the rear the Barndoor axles and reductionboxes are all you need but also the whole transaxle can be used if found. There all is straight Bolt-on. See more in the link above.

Couldn't swap the complete rearaxle assembly as the ringgear and pinions were different on BD vs. split transmission and I was lazy to open the diff. so I just swapped the ring gear instead.

Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:27 am

For those that have used barndoor RGBs and front spindles on their 82e clones, what did you use for brakes? Barndoor or modified type 1 to fit?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:48 pm

I’m working on this swap for my zwitter project. Spindles have unique bolt pattern, so you are forced to use bd brakes. Or I though someone was making disc brakes for bd spindles now? Or you could fab your own I suppose. Rear backing plates are also bd specific, but I think later T1 can adapt with some minor clearancing. I have some pics of the rear interference in my gallery. The other option is to use later split bus or 181 small but rgb stub axles and the outer rgb housing with associated brake hardware. Or at least I have heard that works.

As an aside, I’ve been thinking of having a small batch of bushings made up to run bd spindles with T1 link pins. Anyone interested in that?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:37 pm

I’d be interested in adapter bushings for the link pins.
I sized up a pair of early 60’s type 1 backing plates to the BD RGBs and they looked like they could possibly work but it was just a quick check on my part. The RGB stub axle length and type 1 brake drum I’m not sure about cause I didn’t have one handy to try.

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:16 am

Pretty sure bd stub axle and T1 splines are the same. I can check this weekend.

Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:36 pm

Figured this would be a good thread in which to document some photos for BD bus vs. T1 steering knuckle assemblies.

Overall lift would be close to 3.5”

Can confirm hebsters measurements on link pin center to centers-T1 ~5.25” and bus ~5.5”

Here’s some pics of the link pin and bushings for comparison. Bus uses roller bearings.

T1 backing plate is a bolt on to the BD spindle assembly, but uses one less bolt than stock BD backing plates.

Tie rod casting is about .75” lower on BD knuckle but doubt this is a big deal.

Tricky part on brakes is the spindles are longer and larger diameter on the bus knuckle so you either have to run bus stuff or I guess you could probably figure out how to make a disk brake kit.

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Awesome documentation Neil. These are extremely helpful.

Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:41 pm

Id run the bus drum and pads. They are wider and bigger than T1.

Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:56 am

If anyone wants a set of 4 adapter link pins/bushings to run BD bus spindles on bug trailing arms, PM me. I am getting quotes now on a small batch and want to see how much interest there is.

Neil

Thu May 02, 2019 11:43 am

for posterity and also as a shameless plug, here is the ad for the adapter pins and bushings. I am in the process of getting quotes for material confirmation meeting my prints, so won't be accepting payment until then, but they came out really nice dimensionally and installed like butter in my barndoor spindle so i'm not anticipating issues. will update this post when they are ready to go for sure...

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2275198