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Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:08 pm

I didn't think that the SC bellhousing used a different input shaft or a spacer. I thought that the stock VW input shaft was used and then a custom clutch disk was used with Subaru style outer and VW style inner. Where is there less engagement?

J Charlton, how did your pressure plate fail? was it a stock subaru unit? I know in high RPM/HP race cars, they often require a scatter shield to contain a broken clutch as when it comes apart the fragments can blow through the bell housing and in a front engine rear drive car, people have lost their feet! did the SC bell housing contain everything with minimal damage? What kind of driving were you doing when it came apart?

Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:27 pm

dON'T KNOW WHAT WENT FIRST - (sorry about the caps) - the disk disintegrated, pressure plate cracked in half and the flywheel was scored. Smallcar now does not recommend the subaru pressure plate - as they did at the time I put mine in - now the one they sell is much stiffer, a beefier clutch - just all around beefier.
I wouldn't hesitate to go the small bell housing route again - everything works great and the support was/is terrific.

Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:55 pm

Vango Conversions wrote: I didn't think that the SC bellhousing used a different input shaft or a spacer. I thought that the stock VW input shaft was used and then a custom clutch disk was used with Subaru style outer and VW style inner. Where is there less engagement?

It uses the VW input shaft, but they space it away from the mainshaft inside the gearbox to make up for the additional length of the bellhousing.

From their instructions:

Quote: 6. On the input shaft sticking out of the transmission, locate and expand the circlip near the sleeve on the inner end of the shaft and slide the sleeve toward you enough to allow the input shaft to be unscrewed from the transmission. It is helpful to locate the point on the ring gear carrier housing with an oiling hole which allows some additional clearance for the sleeve.

7. For non-Syncro transmissions prior to about 1986, step 6 should allow you to successfully remove the input shaft and proceed to step 14.

14. Unscrew the stud from the mainshaft and thread in the stud provided. Position the provided circlip to replace the original.

15. Place the spacer sleeve provided onto the mainshaft inside the transmission housing, then reinstall the input shaft by turning it clockwise until snug. Unscrew the input shaft 1/2 to 1 1/2 turn then slide the sleeve back over the inner shaft. Reinstall the snap ring.

Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:55 pm

DUH! I shoulda looked at the instructions! Item 15 from
http://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=pages.view&page_id=23

SmallCar wrote: Place the spacer sleeve provided onto the mainshaft inside the transmission housing, then reinstall the input shaft by turning it clockwise until snug. Unscrew the input shaft 1/2 to 1 1/2 turn then slide the sleeve back over the inner shaft. Reinstall the snap ring.

Now I have to call Rancho! They still have my transmission. So I gotta double check this.....sigh.....

FYI: Mau from SmallCar specifically told me to use their clutch disc. They have it made up for them. It is special. It is the correct thickness. Vanagon clutch discs are about 1.5mm too thick. (You'd think they could just machine them off some! But, I am told it is made for them and is special.) In other words, I just stepped up and bought their clutch kit to go with their bell housing. If it is all their parts then if something happens I can only point to them. I am further informed that the clutch pressure plate used is from the stoutest non turbo motor. So I guess you can figger that out from the parts book. Or I will post part numbers later when I open the box up.

Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:19 pm

Thanks for all the replys. I went back and read the SC bell housing instructions and I don't really like the idea of spacing the input shaft on the transmission, also I have some experience with hydraulic throwout bearings and stiffer than stock clutches in my mustang and well, they suck, that one is leaking and so currently my mustang is off the road with the engine out. I just replaced a stock slave cylinder on a Vanagon 2 weeks ago and it's a much easier job.

I pulled the trigger and bought an adapter plate/flywheel from outfront motorsports, it's heavier than the KEP setup and only slightly more expensive. Since I don't have a Subaru flywheel anyways the adapter is going to be much less expensive and if i have starter problems I'll be able to buy a hi torque starter with some of the savings.

Thanks again for all the input you guys.

Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:09 pm

Vango Conversions wrote: Thanks for all the replys. I went back and read the SC bell housing instructions and I don't really like the idea of spacing the input shaft on the transmission,
Neither do I but I can not comment on the topic as I have not looked at it at all.

Vango Conversions wrote: also I have some experience with hydraulic throwout bearings and stiffer than stock clutches in my mustang and well, they suck
Bah! Apples and Oranges. I understand this version is supposed to be most Vanagon like in operation. Proof is in the pudding, though, and I will report later on the topic since my gearbox is having internals upgraded still.

Vango Conversions wrote: I just replaced a stock slave cylinder on a Vanagon 2 weeks ago and it's a much easier job.
This is another topic addressed some time ago. Don't be surprised if it fails!

Vango Conversions wrote: I pulled the trigger and bought an adapter plate/flywheel from outfront motorsports, it's heavier than the KEP setup and only slightly more expensive.
I REALLY like the idea of using the stock heavier flywheel in this application. Along with using almost all stock parts it was a most appealing solution. I have been reviewing and purchasing so so many parts I did not bother to read the instructions for the Small Car bell housing. I never suspected you would have to modify the input shaft geometry. I just do not know by how much it get spaced and, actually, why. Not something that crossed my mind.

Vango Conversions wrote: Since I don't have a Subaru flywheel anyways the adapter is going to be much less expensive and if i have starter problems I'll be able to buy a hi torque starter with some of the savings.
Again not a cure all. Issues have been discussed about those too. I REALLY liked the idea of using the stock Subaru starter too with the Small Car bell housing.

Vango Conversions wrote: Thanks again for all the input you guys.
I guess we'll see how this all works out....or not....sigh....

There is a real reason why for decades I have disliked many after market parts. This is another example. I do not understand why the Small Car needs this spacer as you woul guess they could fix it in the casting. Heavy sigh....

Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:10 pm

The hydraulic clutch release bearing in the smallcar kit is a late model VW part - they gave me the part number so I know I can get one if it pops!.

I would think a late model genuine VW part of this type would be resonably reliable. I've had no problems, but have only done about 6000 kms.

My clutch feels VERY similar to stock, even with the hghest clamping force NA 2.5 subaru pressure plate. I thought it would be heavier, may even be lighter... very progressive and feels great.

The original VW system, with the external slave, the dodgy cross bar, the bushes in the case, and then the bearing has many more parts to wear and cause issues (it's all old tech, and not in a good way - search for clutch problems). The small car system is very simple really, and I would think much more reliable than the stock setup.... only time will tell, though.

Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:47 am

Worms wrote: The hydraulic clutch release bearing in the smallcar kit is a late model VW part - they gave me the part number so I know I can get one if it pops!.
Care to share please?

The bell housing kit went straight to Rancho and I have not seen the parts....

Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:07 am

loogy wrote: ALIKA T3 wrote: Splines diameter is bigger,doesn't go through the bellhousing. :wink:

I'm not taking about the splines for the clutch disk, I am talking about the splines on the other end of the input shaft that go into the spacer between the input shaft and the main shaft.

The way that Small Car is able to keep the same distance at the bellhousing as with an adapter is by adding a spacer in between the input shaft and the main shaft. This reduces the amount of spline engagement in that area (as well as at the clutch disk if I'm not mistaken). It is for that reason (the potential lack of durability) that I think Richard will not sell his input shaft for use with the Small Car bellhousing.

I know that,I was saying that because he was wondering if he can use the RJES input shaft in the Smallcar bellhousing.
RJ told me the bellhousing was not going to fit through the shaft ,he told me he was using a different seal than the VW one when I wanted to buy one.
I insisted to get it anyway for my UN1 transmission (I could have either put the shaft through the bellhousing first and then close the last half of the transmission ,or modify the SC bellhousing.He finally agreed to sell it to me even if I had the "devil" replica competitor bellhousing,then never heard back from him,and it's not because of lack of emails....

For the hydraulic release clutch,I don't like it either:man,if that goes bad,you have to drop the tranny or the engine :roll: Part number is engraved on it,I wrote it down just in case.
I also tracked who is making their "special" thinner disc:99251N,Clutchmasters,47.62$ a year ago.

I also still have the Subaru disc that I wanted to use,brand new.I can give it to somebody how needs for free,you pay shipping>>PM

The hydraulic slave cylinder is hard to purge,seems like the air doesn't want to travel back from the throwout bearing to it.I can hear it when somebody is pumping on the pedal.It works anyway,but I'll give another try later.

Bye!

Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:16 am

By the way,the spacer if I recall correctly is 5mm.There is still plenty of spline engagement,but that looks cheap....that's for sure.

I guess they didn't make the molding for the casting correctly,and then asked themselves:"hummmmmm,what do we do know?It cost big bucks.....oh,let's solve that with a spacer :lol: "

Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:14 am

ALIKA T3 wrote: By the way,the spacer if I recall correctly is 5mm.There is still plenty of spline engagement,but that looks cheap....that's for sure.

I guess they didn't make the molding for the casting correctly,and then asked themselves:"hummmmmm,what do we do know?It cost big bucks.....oh,let's solve that with a spacer :lol: "
Yah, 5mm. Emm........

Obviously it is to get the shaft as far into the pilot bearing as they can.

But you would think they could machine that 5mm away when they are doing the bell housing work.

I suppose this is a point where the Small Car folks need to step in and advise. Why after, at least, 3 revisions they have to do that. You just can not second guess without knowing why. 5 mm is not "that" much, me thinks, but again, I have not looked as the transmission is at the builders....

Hello Small Car???? Care to respond??????

Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:35 pm

The spacer will be required as the depth of the subaru flywheel, clutch and the release bearing cannot be shortened easily (cheaply). the subaru pressure plate is quite domed compared to the VW one. The VW release bearing can move back further out of the way, but then you have the problem of the bearing slowly moving away from "square" as the stock ones do - the offset force on the shaft causes the bush/shaft to wear on opposite sides at each end - that's why the shaft parts should be replaced every clutch.

I have never replaced a hydraulic clutch part due to failure when it was replaced each clutch. I ONCE replaced a master cylinder on the secong clutch, which had done a total of 100,000 miles over twenty years. Slave is still factory.

I bled mine ia about 10 min: Push pedal down, hole for 10 seconds. open bleeder. release pedal. repeat until you get no bubbles. Then leave it to sit for a couple of mins, then repeat.

If you want to make it MUCH easier - pre-fill the slave - compress with inlet up, put inlet in fluid, release. repeat until no air, install then bleed the line. It really is easy.

Haven't got the OEM number here with me, but it's this one:

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Volkswagen_Passa...8&CCSC

Search for 2006/7 Passat/golf etc petrol 6 speed manual.

:-)

Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:47 pm

Someone just mailed me a link to this thread, so I thought I'd clear a few things up.

Loogy's guess at my reasoning for being very wary of selling my input shafts for unknown applications is exactly right (it wasn't really a guess, as we have discussed it before). The reputation of my products depends on them being used in suitable applications, such as the one they were designed for. I absolutely do not want them fitting in applications where a 10mm spacer arrangement exactly halves the inner spline engagement. The spacer arrangement may work, but it's not the way I do things. I could very easily get some longer shafts made to suit a certain competitors bell housing. However, this is only part of the problem. Needing to pass the (much larger) Subaru spline through the bell housing seal is essential for assembly. This is not possible with a VW, or VW sized seal. Therefore it is only possible to use the Subaru splined shaft with a bell housing which has been designed to have seal arrangements suitable for both the necessary seal sizes. Also. I have little motivation to increase the 'usability' of competitors products.
In my opinion there is no 'need' for a Subaru splined shaft with any of the 'push to release' Subaru clutches. For such relatively low powered conversions, it makes more economic sense to use a VW disc. I see the Subaru splined shafts as a 'nice to have', rather than a necessity for such conversions, as they allow you to use any complete Subaru clutch. It has surprised me how popular the shafts have been with conversions where they give no advantage other than the 'nice to have' factor though. The shafts were originally designed to allow the very heavy duty clutches from the turbo's to be used, specifically in drag cars. I have customers using them with Prodrive WRC spec clutches and Exedy twin plate aftermarket clutches, etc.
I try very hard to avoid designing anything which relies on using custom service parts, so this ruled out using custom clutch components. Maximum flexibility in terms of service part options is a bit of a philosophy of mine.

Interesting that people have used stock Subaru pressure plates with a VW concentric slave cylinder. All Subaru 'push to release' pressure plates have flat diaphragm spring tips, so are intended for use with a radius faced release bearing. If that's a VW 0A5 141 671 E concentric slave, I believe it has a flat faced release bearing (the corresponding VW pressure plates have radius tipped diaphragm spring tips)? If so, it may work in practice, but a flat faced bearing should always be used with a radius tipped diaphragm spring, or vice versa. You won't find any production cars in which the release bearing face and the diaphragm spring tips are either both flat or both radiused, because that is incorrect from a design point of view.

If I have a part in stock, shipping to anywhere typically took no longer than a week. A bell housing to a fairly remote part of Alaska took 4 or 5 days. It may now be slightly longer to the US since the air freight terrorism attempts in November. Since then, all the shipping services have warned to expect consignments to the US to take slightly longer than they used to because of additional new security checks.
I doubt that my products would end up costing 3 - 4 times more than the alternatives when shipped in to the US. If anyone wants an actual price, including shipping, please ask.

Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:50 pm

Ok, I will try to clear a few things up.

When we began designing the bellhousing in 2003, we decided that we didn't want to position the engine much closer to the firewall than with an adapter because of the proximity of the engine to the firewall. It was thought that a little closer might be ok but the SVX and some other engines can be a problem.
This decision determined the height of the bellhousing. With this height chosen, it was determined that the input shaft did not engage the clutch disc enough to allow comfort with the system. It would probably have worked fine but it is preferable to overbuild to eliminate 99.9% of failures. We discovered that there was an excess of spline in the input shaft coupler that could be used and still retain a coupled amount greater than what was needed. An 11mm spacer is used to extend the input shaft and the system was evaluated by some transmission experts including Daryl at AA Trans who believed the setup to be sturdy enough to not be a weak link in the transmission. It would be possible to eliminate the spacer by reducing the height of the bellhousing height by 11mm with a corresponding loss of firewall clearance and we might think about offering this in the future. There have been no failures in the present configuration with around 100 installations including in a Syncro Westy with a 250hp Subaru turbo 2.5L.

As far as the clutch system. We have seen numerous problems with the stock Vanagon clutch system in the last 30 years particularly when stronger pressure plates are used and I knew I wanted to improve the release, the feel and the reliability of the system. After looking into the hydraulic release bearing units, we decided to use the parts that VW was installing on their new cars. While I am not the biggest fan of all the new VWs and their engineering, I think that many new parts are equal to or better that what was available 20 years ago. The VW release assembly we use has proven to be perfect for the application and results in a clutch that feels progressive, releases high on the pedal, and frankly feels better than any stock Vanagon clutch. Even with the strongest pressure plate we offer, a pedal press feels smooth and silky, just like . . . . a New VW.

As far as premature failures of the release assembly, with the exception of a batch of non-oem parts that we sent back we have had none. As a matter of fact, the original Vanagon clutch slave has proven very reliable as well once you figure that it should be replaced when the clutch is replaced, just like ours should be.

My personal opinion, after having driven more Subaru powered vans (about 160) than anyone on the planet is that anyone who drives one of our converted vans with a bellhousing will agree that it is the best system available. Maybe not "perfect" since I believe nothing mechanical truly is, but close.

In other words, drive a conversion with an adapter plate, drive one with a bellhousing, you'll want a bellhousing, period.

Brian
http://smallcar.com

Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:01 pm

About the clutch and pressure plate.

We learned two things about the clutch system after a few installs.

1. The Vanagon disc is thicker than the Subaru disc and does not allow the pressure plate to operate at full strength.

2. The strongest stock Subaru pressure plate works well enough for a 2.2L engine but is near the edge of its capabilities when used with a 2.5L motor.

We revised the clutch options so that the lightest pressure plate we no longer offer, the former heavy duty unit we sell as standard for Subaru engines up to 150hp and the stage 2 for everything else. The standard could work for a 2.5L as long as it is not abused. The disc we sell is essentially a Subaru disc with a Vanagon center.

Brian
http://smallcar.com

Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:18 pm

Thanks again for all the replies everyone, especially Brian from Small Car. I went with the adapter plate mostly just because I know they work fine, and it seemed like the bell housing option was going to end up costing a fair bit more and take I bit more time to install. I also didn't really want to partially disassemble a good transmission if I didn't need to.

I was down there at Small Car the other day and picked up a set of mounts and an oil pan and while I was there I took a look at the bell housing and it looked fine. I may go with the bell housing in the future and I would love the opportunity to drive a bell housing equipped van back to back with an adapter plate one and feel the difference.

My prior comment about the hydraulic T/O bearing was a little bit off. I know many cars have them these day and they're mostly trouble free (still sucks when they fail though). Mine on my Mustang was a "racing" unit and the clutch is pretty stiff so of course it wasn't long before it failed. This is part of the reason why I like to use mostly stock parts as "racing" and "high performance" oftentimes means that they aren't going to be very reliable. This also made me a bit skeptical of the "stage 2" clutch pressure plate, and was the whole reason I began this post. Now It seems to me that the stage 2 pressure plate is basically a stock turbo unit so there shouldn't be much reason to worry.

Again, thanks for all the replies everyone.

Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:50 am

Vango,

An excellent thread ....... that will help folks make more informed choices.

I am still very happy with the choices for my build ......... and as a customer of both RJES and SC.

Cheers.

Fri May 13, 2011 12:15 pm

Installed engine and transmission and noticed the below. Got a Subaru cover that was recommended by Small Car (not on the website or any other way of knowing) and I can not make it fit.

What do I do to cover this up?????
.

[/quote]

Fri May 13, 2011 12:58 pm

I took a license plate, snipped it to fit, hammered it out a bit, applied a thick bead of adhesive and used the provided holes to secure it in place w/ SS screws. Not the prettiest, but seems to do the job for now, keeps the junk out of my fly wheel.
This is another thing I wish some one would make so I could be 100% sure its water tight.
Ill have to take a pic :wink:

Fri May 13, 2011 4:05 pm

I was going to do it too,with a piece of sheet metal.

Why the hell didn't they close that part of the bellhousing?