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Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:27 am

I did not describe the specific snow/ice conditions. I have driven my van in a variety of snow conditions including those you describe.

Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:48 pm

Andrew A. Libby wrote: I did not describe the specific snow/ice conditions. I have driven my van in a variety of snow conditions including those you describe.

I failed to qualify my statements to be as they relate to my experiences and abilities only. No offense intended.

It's funny, I used to head out on the open road in an old 2WD Toyota pickup in winter, driving hundreds of miles a day without thinking about all the stuff I do for the Westy now. Don't know if it's because I'm older or I like my Vanagon more (a lot more), but it's definitely more of an obsession now.

Safe travels!

Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:56 pm

Used to do some low traction research at GMs Proving Grounds with various drive systems and traction aids. We used artificial ice, hills, etc and statistical validation and well designed tests. Winter tires were far and away the most improvement for a passenger vehicle on street conditions, and the slipperier the surface the more pronounced was that finding. That was a mobility capability - ability to get around.

Overall safety wise, tires gained hugely since they improve cornering, stopping and evasive maneuvering. Differential changes did nothing here. So the winter tire margin of victory was even larger.

DougM

Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Some of the the posts are a bit misleading about the value of a peloquin. Here is my 2 cents so that people considering this upgrade are not dissuaded. The least effective conditions for the peloquin are very very low traction conditions. Torque gets applied to both wheels but with both spinning, you don't have enough grip to move forward such as on ice or slippery wet clay. And the rear end may start to move around. But in those same conditions, the open diff will not move at all. One wheel will simply spin in place. For sure you are applying more torque to the ground with a peloquin on ice, but it isn't enough to overcome the slippy factor, and it almost feels worse than an open diff that just sits there and spins.

But if you have sufficient traction, the peloquin is superior. If you do much winter driving, dedicated snow tires are the way to go, whether you have a peloquin or not. Limited slip is just not magical enough to overcome those super slippy conditions. I've been stuck on flat ground in my lockedsyncro when my tires sunk down to the ice under the snow. That was with BFGs. Just a tough situation to expect traction with non-winter tires.

The conditions where a peloquin will shine is in the sand and on gravel roads going up steep hills. No comparison to an open diff. You can get through sand you wouldn't even consider with a stock diff. And on steep rocky dirt roads, the rear wheels will work together and get you up something that a stock diff couldn't dream of.

I would say the advantage of the peloquin would also be realized in bad winter conditions if you have snow tires, which will give enough traction to take advantage of the two drive wheels. And in the crunchy off road snow, the peloquin also helps a lot. And for something that requires no maintenance and just works when it is needed, it is well worth the extra expense if you drive in those conditions.

Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:44 pm

All said and done, paying a shop to remove and reinstall, ship, and have AA install a peloquin, and any other costs involved, How much is a peloquin?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:40 pm

Running_Man wrote: All said and done, paying a shop to remove and reinstall, ship, and have AA install a peloquin, and any other costs involved, How much is a peloquin?

Completely Depends, $1,100 is the going cost for a new unit, I bought mine after a dude rolled his rigged for $800 and traded a good ring and Pinion for the install plus new syncros and gears.

I know another guy that brought in 4 gear boxes to "Quality known builder" and came away with a rebuilt trans with new 3rd and 4th plus a peloquin for his trade. FYI we used to be able to get trans from the pick and pull for about $75 each.

I can pull and install my trans easily on Saturday in about 4 hours by myself. Cut that in half with a helper.

Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:48 pm

In my case I was rebuilding my transmission when the Peloquin TBD was installed so it didn't add much labor to it. So $1,100 in parts plus a bit of cash for extra labor.

Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:53 am

madspaniard wrote: In my case I was rebuilding my transmission when the Peloquin TBD was installed so it didn't add much labor to it. So $1,100 in parts plus a bit of cash for extra labor.

Same. I was having the transmission regeared for a TDi conversion and $1,100 was on the mark.

I had to drive this afternoon through very heavy slush, about 8-12" of slippery, deeply rutted mash potatoe snow that had been drenched with semi-freezing rain. Before the Peloquin, I wouldn't have made it far at all.

EDIT: Rereading Davevickery's post, the Peloquin probably worked in these conditions because I was getting some traction to one wheel because of the snow tires. Without the Peloquin though, I am convinced the minimal traction I was experiencing at any one wheel would not have propelled me through this 3 mile section. If I'm not mistaken I have seen vids of Dave's van negotiating some off-road conditions near Moab. I appreciate his detailed analysis of the Peloquin.

Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:11 am

Having driven a decade or so with a Torsen and blizzaks, I'd agree the lock and slide thing was something to think about when accelerating, particularly on off-camber starts. With race tires though on an autocross track (not my van!) the Torsen diff certainly allowed earlier application of power through corners and a bit more predictable trailing throttle over-steer. A torque biasing differential was not a "transforming" experience for winter driving...winter tires sure are though :-) After two months with temps averaging -20C (maybe the coldest ever here) you certainly see a profound difference with winters on.

If I was on the fence...I'd be justifying a torque biasing diff based on dry traction needs as Dave describes. Given a choice between a second sit of rims and winter tires/studs, vs diff, I'd be going with tires. If money is no object, both are nice too :-)

Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:46 am

You have fitted a Torsen to a Van? Any build details - that's worthy!

Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:00 am

Ha. Nope, the Quaife is sitting in an 84 autocross prep'd scirocco...s of six months ago, in the hands of a young wannabe racer in Toronto :-) Four cars to take care was becoming rather tedious. The Westy is garaged for the winter.

Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:04 am

Dang, that would have been amazing

Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:24 pm

I run a Locker-Style LSD. It's pretty awesome and I pull the switch after I've left the highway and the chains are on. It's very much a function of the road conditions, the turns, etc; and when I know I need it. When it's on, the rear-end feel likes a tractor, the rear wheels alternate power and they move pretty much lockstep. Turns are a bad idea, as it'll want to plow straight. When it's really bad, I'll add chains to the front as well, which seems to help; but you need to go slow and pay attention.

I've heard that a TBD can be added to a 091 tranny, along with a L-LSD. If this is true, I wouldn't mind dropping the cash asap. As I slid into the cement guard-rail as I hit the offramp on a spring-ski day. I had my summer tires on (mistake #1 and the biggest) and slid right off. I was going slow as hell, maybe 5-10 mph, and it just slide 10 feet sideways. 100% my fault for having the wrong rubber-compound on the road. But it reinforced to me that accidents happen on road conditions that you don't know are bad and when you aren't prepared. I feel like an "always on" technology might help increase safety.

Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:08 pm

Hi, All:

Okay, so as eluded to on a few threads hereabouts, we are in need of a tranny rebuild and other relaters, so here's what we're gonna do:

1). Rebuild 4-speed with a new ring and pinion, raising revs in 1st to 3rd at same speed, SA gear oil deflector, steel mainshaft thrust plate in case I ever upgrade bhp and/or for more strength

2). Top gear fitted for slightly less revs in 4th (or perhaps about the same with the higher new tires)

3). Also, clutch, throwout, et al

4). Peloquin install, Ba-by! (Thanks for the decider call, Sodo!!!)

5). New lift springs and Koni adjustable shocks

6). Going from 14" to 16" wheels

7). BFG ATs, likely 215/7-R16 (adds 0.9" to tire diameter compared to our 27x8.5/14s)

QUESTIONS:

— Does anyone know what revs a 1.9L turns at the shift points of 21, 39, and 65 mph?

— Does anyone know the revs for the limiter to kick in on a 1.9L?

— Does the Peloquin affect mileage on normal roads?

Rock and Roll. Psyched.

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:33 pm

E1,
Bigger tires AND higher 4th might be too much to ask of your 1.9. Can you put on the new rubber before you yank the tranny to see how you like the tires in 4th at hwy speed?
-d

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:44 pm

Thanks, Raoul.

The tranny will be built from a different case so we don't have to wait around for days while it's getting rebuilt… plus the builder's in Phoenix and the installs will all be done in Santa Cruz.

The rebuilder said my 4th will be essentially the same as it is now in terms of rev. So with my going up about 3.3% in tire diameter, that's the only place I will lose a few RPMs in 4th.

I considered doing a five-speed instead of the Peloquin, but with all the dirt we do while full-timing the Peloquin seems a better choice. I say this because when considering a five-speed, the last thing I would have done is adding another gear atop 4th to a motor that can't pull it well — and especially with the weight we carry.

Yep, I realize the Ol' 1.9 will be slightly more taxed which is partly why I'm doing the higher-revving ring and pinion. That and it has around 300K on it so cheap insurance in getting more life from a newer R&P.

I will likely upbuild the WBX slightly when I need a new motor down the road. The way it runs now it'll hopefully be a long wait.

Thank You very much!

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:55 pm

A 5spd doesn't put more load on the 1.9, it breaks up the long pull from 3rd to 4th. Makes life a lot easier on the 1.9. No more screaming to the top of third and then bogging down in 4th on uphill onramps, etc.

Hans

Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:01 pm

Thank You Hans.

I did debate the fiver vs. the Peloquin a long while, and feel confident the Peloquin will do more for us compared to the five-speed.

We're going from a 4.83 or 4.86 R&P to a 5.43, and the gearing math done with the rebuilder sounds quite good for what we need. 4th gear is now at .85, new one will be either .77 or .75.

We tend to run up long, two-lane hills in 2nd at about 32 mph, though it'll pull to redline if we wanted that. My hope is that we could now do such a hill in 3rd at about 40 to 45. But we're mostly doing the taller R&P to get more rev while crawling on the bad stuff.

Thanks!

Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:25 pm

E1 wrote: — Does anyone know the revs for the limiter to kick in on a 1.9L?

The limiter of concern I think is the rods. In general you don't want to invoke that limiter. 8) 8)

E1 wrote: — Does the Peloquin affect mileage on normal roads?
un-related

Except for the case where you are constantly braking, then rubber-necking down every sideroad; thinking "where do you think that road goes, and can I drive it?". Then speeding back up, etc. I suppose a Peloquin can affect your mileage in that way.

Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:07 pm

Not planning on hitting the limiter, just getting a sense of where to remark the shift points. I don't shift there (Duh) but until I get a tach I want that reference.

I don't tend to dick around in choosing roads, either. :D