TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:26 pm

Hello everybody,
With every release of my clutch pedal - I heard a metallic rubbing sound right in the area of the e-brake... inside the tunnel.

After a reasonably quick search - I deduced that the tube mount had indeed broken inside the tunnel.
I found a thread that claimed the mount was 40 1/2" back from the firewall.
Try as hard as I could to peek inside the tunnel through the tiny holes of the e-brake - and seeing nothing - I drilled a 3/8" hole 5' off the floor to get a metal sabre saw blade into.
Drilling the second hole I ran into the e-brake tube, so I drilled another set 1/2" lower.

you can see the e-brake tube in the upper left hole. The tape marked the 40 1/2" spot.
Without much room to be "pretty" or concourse quality...
I bent the sucker back to expose - the broken mount.

It's a simple "L" bracket, and it broke right at the bend of course.
Here you can see the area that the flexing tube would rub against creating the noise. (you'll never forget that sound - believe me)

My hole size was about 5x4 and should have been bigger for easier and neater repair - as well as getting the ground cable inside and clamped to the tube itself. And... I would have added a fire shield between the gas line too!!
As it was, just cobble-dicking a wedge to hold things in place was a feat of creativity.

a block of 2x4 and a hammer handle -professional all the way! ha.
I never got a shot of the hole with the wedge, the hammer handle and the Hobart welder ground clamp all stuck in the hole - and then to get in there to weld???
Well - it's not pretty - and I can weld reasonably well under regular circumstances... but it's fixed

I wish I could have gotten in there to grind the paint and oils away..
but there was no reasonable way, I'll wire brush and paint inside there tomorrow - and will spot weld the flap back, and maybe screw on a simple plate to neaten things up.
I'm not going to permanently seal the opening - I'll leave it accessible - just in case.
And!... tomorrow my new accel cable, door hinges, and clutch cable are due to arrive via FedEx from KGPR... stay tuned.

I really want to thank everyone who takes the time to document their efforts - even just a few simple pics - explain a lot and help to ease the fear of the unknown.
Pat

Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:43 am

Brilliant...just what we need...added to the "How To" sticky. Thanks Pat. :D

Thu May 05, 2011 11:58 pm

Well.... it's been about 2 weeks.
I was trying to determine if the very slight "whirring" sound I was hearing when my clutch pedal was depressed (disengaged) was due to my throw out bearing.
So I was going to adjust my clutch first, and as i was applying hand pressure to the clutch pedal I heard a small noise towards the front of my tunnel.
I pulled the seats and opened up my existing hole from the middle mount repair I did a week ago to check that first - it was solid. There was no doubt about it - it was in the front.
Next - pull the pedal assembly (AgaiN!) and stick my fingers in the hole and flip the front of the tube up and down from the mount bracket.
Ah S#%*!
well... at least I know what to do and expect.
The front will pose different problems though - it's tighter to work up there.

I'll be on this tomorrow and until I get it resolved - only to find out if I need to swap a throw out bearing. ha Ha.
I'll keep you posted with pics if needed.

Question if anybody is out there and has really done it -
can I drop the motor from a Karmann Ghia with the car on jackstands?
is there enough room to get the motor out with only 20" clearance below the rear valance?
I'm guessing it will need to lay backwards and then me pull it out while it's on it's back and on a piece of carpet or cardboard? Would there be a problem if I did it that way?
any experience would be great - thanks.

Fri May 06, 2011 4:02 am

Take off a rear wheel and slip the motor out the side, often gives a tad more space. Also depends what you've got the engine sitting on, the floor, a dolly, a jack, whatever. Greatly changes the height of the engine.

Also, get bigger jack stands if need be.
Just make sure you chock the front wheels so the car cannot roll forward, slip off the jacks and kill you.

There is also some chatter that leaving that huge hole unwelded in the tunnel weakens it. That tunnel is the spine of the car and virtually all of the cars strength comes from that member. Just something to think about.

Dave

Fri May 06, 2011 6:46 am

So its broken in two spots?

I have some noise from time to time in mine but it comes and goes. Seem to hear it more when the car is warmed up. Also I hear it less if I use more power when letting the clutch out in first.

Did you see this in your car as well?

Fri May 06, 2011 11:19 pm

Hello all,
Here's how things went for the repair of the Front clutch tube mount within the center tunnel on my 66 Karmann Ghia coupe.
The front is totally different than the middle. (now I know) and so will you!
The mount spans the width of the tunnel - thus preventing me from bending back an access flap as I did for the middle mount.
I determined the distance of 6" from the firewall by sticking my finger in the clutch shaft tunnel entrance hole and marking my spot on the passenger side.. instead of having my flap bend down - I needed to extend my cuts up to have my flap bend open from the top

here you can see the tube re-welded to the mount as it spans the tunnel

That's the fuel line on the bottom of the mount, and you can just see the accelerator cable tube towards the top..both reasonably well out of the way.
in the end - I basically cut two flaps - like the flaps of a box - to wind up just being able to use the top flap.
It all tack welded back together reasonably well, I may cover both patches with a screwed on plate, prior to replacing the carpet - but I'm anal, so I hope someone talks me out of it.

The repair of the mount weld... including the tunnel cuts, weld, interior/ext prime, tack welds took 1 1/2 hours...
it took me 3 more hours to get the friggin' pedal assembly back together!Argh! what a PITA! first time went well... so I guess I should be grateful
But it's all back together - I would not do any of this as a preventative thing - wait till you "need" to do it. I can only imagine the excess pressures that a heavy street clutch will place on most tubes - be prepared to fix this at some point if you're driving a built motor- this is a pretty weak link in the chain. This may not be true due to the style of Clutch in a VW - I could be wrong... but there is no doubt - it's a break waiting to happen.

the floors were POR 15ed during the first repair - the tunnel I sprayed after this fix. I'm pretty convinced that this will hold for the rest of my time.

Thanks Dave for the input on the motor - I know I'll get it out - just never done it - yet.
and I agree with the structural integrity of the tunnel - I've tack welded it closed for now ( I'll give it another week - and then button it up properly.
And thanks Nova - I hear noises all the time in my vehicles I really don't think I can honestly compare noises over the internet.
But the "clunking scrape" I heard all the time - there was no doubt something was broken in the tunnel.

If I can help anyone any further - feel free to contact me.
I Love this car! Pat

Sat May 07, 2011 8:19 am

This is a great thread, :D However, I weld the holes that I cut in the tunnel back up because of the structural strength that the tunnel provides. One caution if you do this, POR-15 is highly flamable, Don't Ask How I know, Almost lost my beard :shock: Had to use rollock sanding disc to get rid of the POR around the weld and cover the area with heavy cardboard.

Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:36 am

I agree, great thread! I have the same problem on my 61. I had the car for 24 years now and know every inch of the car, or a least I thought I did. When to cut the hole by the ebrake and to my suprise, under the original carpet padding, there was a hole already cut out. :D . They never welded up the hole, just closed the flap. Thanks again.

Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:05 pm

das skiver wrote:

This is an example of one of the crappy designs of our cars.
During operation, the tube wants to flex up and down. Making the bracket go sideways is completely the wrong direction. But due to the way they assembled the tubes inside the tunnel, they couldn't attach the tube bracket to the floor of the tunnel.
By just re-welding the break, you haven't prevented it from happening in the future. Eventually it will break again.
When you do this repair, it is better to make a bracket to extend down to the floor. Much easier to weld too.

Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:17 pm

Bruce wrote:
This is an example of one of the crappy designs of our cars.
During operation, the tube wants to flex up and down. Making the bracket go sideways is completely the wrong direction. But due to the way they assembled the tubes inside the tunnel, they couldn't attach the tube bracket to the floor of the tunnel.
By just re-welding the break, you haven't prevented it from happening in the future. Eventually it will break again.
When you do this repair, it is better to make a bracket to extend down to the floor. Much easier to weld too.

So much for the 'Volkswagen knows best' theme. They got a lot of stuff wrong and this is just one example of that. Overall the engineering was excellent - just not in this area.

Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:32 am

Here's the way I fixed a 68 Ghia a few years ago:

Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:28 am

I had the same issue on my 1971 Super Beetle. To permanently fix this design issue, I used a 1" x 1.5" tube to fit the tunnel:

I welded it into the sides of the tunnel, then welded the clutch tube to this support. This should permanently fix the problem, as well as add additional cross-car structure to the tunnel. The other tube is held with an isolated clamp & M6 SHCS.

I think others can benefit from this design, so I made a whole batch of them and now have them listed for sale in the Classifieds section.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1780443
If the link above does not work, please search my user name to find my ad.

Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:57 pm

This post just saved me a ton of time fixing a '68 bug with this exact issue! Thanks everyone! :wink:

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:09 am

I have a Meyer Manx Dune Buggy on a 64 Bug pan
The Clutch & Accelerator Tubes are rusted because the previous owner kept the dune buggy partially uncovered outside for 5 years. What a nightmare.

I cannot get the cables to budge so i believe at this point I either get a new pan or repair the one that i have.. i need to replace both Clutch and Accelerator Metal tubes.

Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:15 pm

I had to quite a bit of work to my 64 Pan like replace the Frame Head..
It was my first time and I was a tad afraid but finally couldn't wait for someone else to take care of it so I did it myself... Wow it was simple..
Just gotta have the right tools and HFT has them

I cut the front tunnel and rotted frame head with a Sawzall

You don't really need to do reinforce the middle of the tube and after the pics I explain why and the use of a thicker walled 5/8" steel tube for the clutch tube[/b]

I only welded it at the front and back.. check out these pics

REAR BY INSPECTION COVER PLATE

This is how it came originally from Factory

Think about this for a moment...
When it was manufactured it was done with the intention of lasting 50+ years or so. The metal tube that was used was less than 1/16" wall thickness and it was braced in 3 places. They were run with standard clutch discs and pressure plates.

Now when you go back in your 5/8" ID tube is close to 1/8" wall thickness. It will only need to be braced (Welded) at the front and on the rear near the inspection panel (Coupler tube to nose cone).. Once it is welded there like what I did you wont have to worry about it for another 50+ years.

I spoke to Nate over at Turnkey Manx that does this day in and day out and he assured me that it wasn't necessary to weld it in the middle.

Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:36 pm

What is the stock clutch tube size and wall thickness?

Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:48 am

I believe it is 12mm.
Years ago a friend had to make a new tube so he could finish the installation of a manual trans into his autostick pan. He used ½" tubing. But it was a bit too big in OD so the bowden tube wouldn't go over top of it at the rear. We just sanded it down for a bit until it fit. The difference was slight, that's why I think the stock tube is 12mm (½"=12.7mm)

Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:56 am

Mine had a 5/8 tube with a pretty thick wall. It would have taken white a bit of sanding. I am redoing it all Thank your for the reply.