TheSamba.com :: View topic - Camping trip wasn't to be, clutch issues. (resolved update)

Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:41 pm

Wow Steve, now you need to keep us up to date. Sorry to hear of the medical issue and wish you the best in getting and keeping on top of it. Keep with it bud! Is this a new recently discovered problem?

Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:54 pm

Desertbusman wrote: Wow Steve, now you need to keep us up to date. Sorry to hear of the medical issue and wish you the best in getting and keeping on top of it. Keep with it bud! Is this a new recently discovered problem? Since the car accident a year ago I started having mild chest pains where the seat belt was. We thought it might be muscular as my back was hurt. It got worse in the winter and left me short of breath so the Dr thought it might be asthma returning. All EKG's were normal. They did a angiogram Thursday to see if anything was going on in the heart and discovered the arteries had scars in them and that caused blockages which have damaged the lower part of my heart through mini heart attacks.

I blew up his TO bearing to look at the dents on the bushing that holds the cross shaft. They are unusual. In doing so I got a good look at the TO bearing. It has come apart and collapsed. Based on this I would guess that the TO was under engineered or the pressure plate too strong for the TO. Maybe both were cheap steel. But my eyes may be playing tricks - someone else take a look and compare it to a new one.

what a new on looks like:

Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:13 pm

I was questioning (in my own mind) that TO bearing. Looked a bit off center like it had failed somehow.

Steve, best wishes to a fast recovery. My Mom had a heart attack about 12 years ago and the day after her stints were installed she was almost 100% better. Amazing that they can now do that.

Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:15 pm

Without views from different directions it's hard to tell about theT/O brg. ,but yes, it appears it might be screwed up and not concentric. We've mentioned the fork bushing before. :lol:

Hang in there with the health. First thought was wondering if the stress of Cali overwhelmed you.

Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:20 pm

aeromech wrote: I was questioning (in my own mind) that TO bearing. Looked a bit off center like it had failed somehow.

Steve, best wishes to a fast recovery. My Mom had a heart attack about 12 years ago and the day after her stints were installed she was almost 100% better. Amazing that they can now do that.

They wanted to do a bypass on it cause it took 7 stents but I said no. Eveyone I know who has had a bypass is back in 5 years later for stents. Between the accident, my dad's death, mom's cancer and the dogs cancer all in the last year I am not prepared to deal with the recovery time for a bypass. The good news is my brother Rick had a great salmon trip in Alaska and came home with a big smile. That makes life worthwhile. And I got to flirt with a very pretty nurse....

I suspect quality of material as the problem here but would like to know why that cross shaft is so beat up.

Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:40 pm

Because someone beat it up. :shock: But he's going to put in a new bushing and seal kit in it anyway.

Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:49 pm

Steve, I wish you a speedy recovery and good health onward!
Thanks for your input and as for the bushing, shaft and the area, I will take better pictures and a video of it in swinging action. That will give everybody a better idea.

Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:51 pm

thanks - get a TO bearing from a better source. Also make sure you know how to feel the freeplay - I use my hand to feel for the freeplay because it is easy to go too tight using your foot. It is a subtle change when the TO just touches the pressure plate.

Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:04 pm

I looked at your mounted new pp and it looks normal to me in the photo. The only thing that goes though my mind is that the pressure plate has normal clearance to the hub so it should disengage with just a tiny bit of pressure. You have or haven't tested the new one yet? Your old TO is scrap metal.

Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:26 pm

SGKent wrote: I looked at your mounted new pp and it looks normal to me in the photo. The only thing that goes though my mind is that the pressure plate has normal clearance to the hub so it should disengage with just a tiny bit of pressure. You have or haven't tested the new one yet? Your old TO is scrap metal.

Tested new what? Haven't done anything on it today, my engine jack is being borrowed. I will get back on it in the next couple of days.
And why is the current TO crap metal, because it does not look the same as the one in your photo or because you can see it somehow being screwed? I'm just wondering because it's not clear to me.The one you posted from Bus Depot does look more like the one I had on my Ghia('61) with a flat ring on it rather then the rounded looking one seen in the pic.

Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:28 pm

And the frustration... never ends! :evil:

I couldn't get back to finish this off on the bus as I crashed one of the bikes two weeks ago and banged up my leg a bit. :roll:
In the meantime I got a SACHS pressure plate and the clutch shaft bushing kit. It took me a bit to get that damn bushing out(the shaft end one) but I finally managed to collapse it and pull it out.
I thought that was the end of frustrations but noooo... there's more! The goddamn lever end bushing does NOT FIT the clutch shaft. Well, it does but has no room to move! :evil: I figured I'd tap it on there before I put it in properly as if I need to pull it off it's easier then doing it out the side of the tranny. Well I was right about that but I can't get it off at all now. The replacement bushing seems to be designed to get rid of the bushing sleeve and dust seals on both ends.
So, anyway, now I need to buy yet another bushing kit and a clutch shaft, I scored the old one a bit so I might change that as well so everything is new. Since I've had a hell of a time with CIP garbage parts, can anybody confirm that their cross shafts are not junk?? I'm thinking I'll buy another bushing kit(it's only $7 anyway) and the 68-70 shaft:
http://www.cip1.ca/SearchResults.asp?Search=clutch+shaft&Search1=Search

Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:52 am

Well you sure don't want to end up with Crappy Inferior Parts.
I don't remember where I got my bushing kit from. But the bushing was a real nice precision fit on the shaft I had. The only issue was that it was real difficult to get the locating screw in place. Rather it was real difficult to get the bushing in position to receive the retaining end of the screw. Based on your other picture I wouldn't be surprised if the operating shaft wasn't messed up.
Is it that difficult to get parts from all the many other parts suppliers? I would never again deal with CIP but have had good success with about everyone else. W W, Airhead, Chirco, SoCal Imports, B B, B D, and AutohausAZ.
But whereever the bushing kit came from it was good.

Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:11 am

Desertbusman wrote: Well you sure don't want to end up with Crappy Inferior Parts.
I don't remember where I got my bushing kit from. But the bushing was a real nice precision fit on the shaft I had. The only issue was that it was real difficult to get the locating screw in place. Rather it was real difficult to get the bushing in position to receive the retaining end of the screw. Based on your other picture I wouldn't be surprised if the operating shaft wasn't messed up.
Is it that difficult to get parts from all the many other parts suppliers? I would never again deal with CIP but have had good success with about everyone else. W W, Airhead, Chirco, SoCal Imports, B B, B D, and AutohausAZ.
But whereever the bushing kit came from it was good.

Yes this experience has spent most of my CIP "points". Thing with them though is that they are local to me, I go and pick the parts up. Otherwise I would have started buying somewhere else a long time ago. The kit you show is indeed better, it has seals, the washer, the bushing is the correct one with a sleeve.. it even comes with a new screw!

This is what you get from CIP:
http://www.cip1.ca/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=VWC-113-198-026
That's it... and note the bushing, just one solid piece of brass pipe with a hole for the screw. :roll:

Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:39 am

Looks like with the one from cip you also get the screw.

Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:43 am

And while you are at it, check one more thing. The recess that the throw out bearing sits in - how does it look? Worn? Solid?

This is what happened to mine:

On the left, a new arm, on the right, my seriously worn out arm. Throw out bearing would press unevenly, bearing would rotate and chatter, I went through three clutches before I realized this problem. (expensive and ignorant on my part)

Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:41 am

Batan wrote: Steve, I wish you a speedy recovery and good health onward!.......

X2

-dasdachshund

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:41 pm

dasdachshund wrote: Batan wrote: Steve, I wish you a speedy recovery and good health onward!.......

X2

-dasdachshund

x3

encsdaddy

Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:51 pm

Desertbusman wrote: Looks like with the one from cip you also get the screw.

Mike - be careful lest you get yourself into trouble here. We know you are not a fan of CIP.....

thank you to others who have wished me a speedy recovery.

Rancho makes some good cross shaft kits. Or you can buy the individual pieces from VW if it is a late trans.

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:35 am

Desertbusman wrote:

Guess what, I ordered the same part number kit again(it's only 7 bucks) and this time it came identical to the one above. :?
Awesome! I ordered a new cross shaft as well. But, the curse seems to be going on and on, I got everything in and things are still not right. :roll: I don't know what the hell is it with this "simple" clutch job but it's just been going on forever! :evil:
Anyway, with the new shaft and new bushing kit installed, the TO bearing doesn't seem centered. There is a lateral play in the shaft and once on, the clutch return spring tends to pull it outwards. No, there is some lateral play in the bushing/sleeve that's held on by the screw - is there supposed to be any? IIRC, the original one had some too. If I push the shaft in, it will sit in place and the TO bearing seems centered, but as I said, the spring tends to keep the tension outwards.
The sleeve screw hole was slightly smaller then the original :roll: , so I had to drill it out a bit for the screw to be able to sit in there. I might have given it some slack that way but not more then a millimeter or so.

Here's what it looks like (the TO bearing is not clipped in here but you can see its shifted to the left)

This whole part can move left/right a bit:

And you can see here how it sits out the end bushing. When I push in the shaft making the bearing centered, this gap is about 1/3 of the size it is in this picture.

Again, I can't believe something this simple is turning out to be this complicated. Any input?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:29 am

Not being at all sarcastic but I think you have made great progress. I'd sure think that you now have identified to reason for the destroyed clutch and all the hassles you've had with it. T/O brg. not actuating the pressure plate accurately and correctly.
I just checked the fork on my old trans. The fork rotates smoothly and there is no side play whatsoever. It's the one I had put the bushing kit in a few years ago. It was a PITA to get assembled just as it was in my bug and a friends bus. With my new rebuilt trans I didn't pay any attention to the cross shaft.
Have you carefully studied the parts diagram in Bentley? And the half page of instructions? The kits evidently don't have the #11 bushing but I remember the difficulty aligning all the holes for the lock bolt and how easy it was to get the lock bolt in incorrectly where it would clamp the parts instead of locating them.
From again looking at the pictures and trying to remember, it seems like with the fork removed from the bell housing you can assemble all the parts on the fork shaft and determine that there is a complete stack up of parts and no way for any side slop. Then that only leaves the locating bolt to correctly position the whole affair in the bell housing. The difficulty I had was losing the bolt and washer and having to make one. Don't remember there being one in the kit. The length (also established by the washer thickness) was very critical. There is a good possibility that is where your problem is. The locating shank on the tip or the bolt has to enter and position the sleeve without contacting the shaft. Very finite dimensions.
So it seems as if your problem is either the bolt isn't locating or else the stack-up of parts on the shaft leaves end play.
BTW, those last pics are tremendous. Really helps with the communication of the issue.