TheSamba.com :: View topic - Installing a Type 1(upright cooling)engine into a Type 4 72+ FAQ

Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:37 am

Yep I emailed him about it. Appreciate the links!

Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:43 pm

Amskeptic wrote:

They share exactly the same torque. They share exactly the same torque.
Since they also share the same gear ratios, the only difference between the
two showed up solely in the Type 4 engine's ability to keep pulling another 1,000 rpm in each gear.

Colin

The spec's I have seen list the 1600 as 81ft lbs vs 85ft lbs for the 1700. Close but not exactly the same. Isn't the hp 60hp for the 1600 and 67 hp for the 1700?
I agree the 1700 has more bigger powerband and you can cruise at 70mph all day worry free with a 002 tranny.

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:51 pm

Bleyseng wrote:
The spec's I have seen list the 1600 as 81ft lbs vs 85ft lbs for the 1700. Close but not exactly the same.

What specs, European? Not here in USASmogLand

Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:12 pm

Thanks for that link tubdub! I grabbed it. The rest I think I can fab pretty well. That main piece looks like the bear!

Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:46 am

Ok, so since BD started this thread with the caveat that you'll replace a T1 2-3x over before you rebuild a Type4, I think this begs a pretty serious question: If you're going to all of that trouble rebuilding, maybe you might consider many of the ongoing after-market engineering improvements that have gone into the T1 and not just by a crate engine from South of the Border? Between a better cam to move the torque lower, and dynamically balancing all of the rotating components, as well as all of the engineering that has gone into improved longevity for heads...I don't see the win of the Type4.

Please don't misunderstand me: I've spent the last two years reading everything I can get my hands on about the Type4 engine preparatory to owning one. (Which I do, now.) But I've already set aside heaping helpings of cash to rebuild the engine because I expect it to fail. That's the vibe I get, unless I'm going to spring for Hoffman heads and a Raby Cam & kit.

No one said the hobby was cheap. But an affordably well re-built Type4 seems to be even rarer than I imagined.

Sorry for the Eyore moment. Someone please point me to a rebuilt Type4 that will carry me 100k without costing more than a whole new car.

Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:20 pm

Please keep in mind that this a Type 1 thread more or less.

I am currently looking to replace my 78 2000cc motor with a stock 1600 type 1.

I admire you for spending 2 years reading about Type 4 engines. My story is different, and some would say old school.

I bought my 1st Type 4 Bus in New Orleans in 1981. It was a stock 1979 2000c FI nightmare. I got it a VW Dealership and they were having trouble keeping it running right.
At that time very few people knew how to keep a FI engine running right without replacing all the FI components; so, I took the FI off and bought a new Weber Progressive and 914 Header exhaust and ran a 019 distributor. I had to go to the local muffler shop and have them rebend the exhaust.

It ran great after that. In the process of taking the FI off; I found a warpy washer had been left between the Plenum Manifold block and the head. causing the Bus to run lean and misfire.

After that time I owned about 15 or so late model bays; and with the exception of the one mentioned they all ran hot, dropped valves, FI ran haywire on a long trip, and were very costly to replace the heads and pistons.

During that time I also drove 1968-71 Busses, and they drove rings around the bigger motors in town.

In 1982 I broke down in Birmingham, Al. with bad points. I stopped at a local VW shop and they would not work on it. All I wanted them to do was time it after I put new points in. I sight timed it with a match book cover for point gap and moved the distributor till it ran the best at idle.

So, I guess I'm not the guy to jump on the Type 4 bandwagon. I just can't afford to dump alot of money into keeping one running.

This is why I'm changing to a 1600 Type I. It it actually cheaper and more fun to go across the country on my Harley. and parts are cheaper.

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:43 pm

Quote: So, I guess I'm not the guy to jump on the Type 4 bandwagon. I just can't afford to dump alot of money into keeping one running.

That's the whole point.. There is no "keeping it running" like the nickel and dime issues and weekends lost to working on the damn engine just so you can drive it for another few days before starting all over again.

With the Type 4 the foundation is more robust, component quality is much better and when you do it right the first time you are done for a decade of non stop driving. I drove one of my engines 160,000 miles and abused the hell out of it, even went 23,000 miles on one oil change.. Changed spark plugs twice over an 8 year period and made ZERO repairs to that engine other than replacing the alternator once. I adjusted the valves on February 3rd 2003 and they never got an adjustment again until I took it off the road for restoration in July of 2010.
Attaining this does cost something, but I value my time and would rather drive my vehicle as work on it.

VW swapped to Type 4 power for a reason.

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:15 pm

well, here is my 0.02 (since you asked :lol: ) if i get a chance next winter, i may throw a 091 in my 71 single cab. the gearing is awful in it and figure i can have it done in a afternoon. if i hate it, i'll swap it back. if it explodes, i'll move on. it's a GEX mystery engine with hydro's :shock: but the bastard runs like a watch

now that i said that there is probably some german engineer doing cartwheels in his casket because i plan on messing up all his hard work.

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:39 pm

Quote: now that i said that there is probably some german engineer doing cartwheels in his casket because i plan on messing up all his hard work
I make them roll in their graves on an hourly basis.. BUT I always UPGRADE, not downgrade.

I have a Porsche 915, 5 speed and a 220HP, 2.8 liter Type 4 with PEFI in my 68 double cab that used to have a "type 1 based" engine in it.. 5K miles in just a few months, 27 MPG running 75MPH and my head temps never even hit 325 climbing a 6% grade thats 5 miles long at 75 MPH at less than 3.2K RPM in 5th gear on the hottest day we had last July, which was about 98F.

Of course, to each his own and its a matter of personal preference, but T1 based engine have a tough time living super long, worry free lives in a lightweight beetle with 2X the aerodynamics of a bus.

I drove this double cab ONE TIME from my house to the shop up that 6% grade with the "type 1 engine" installed before I pulled it out and used it as an engine blow engine at our open house. There is no excuse for having to gear down to climb a hill.

Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:45 am

I don't understand why some go to such great lengths to put a type 1 in a late bay- I'm sure they have reasons. My experience:2.0w/ hydraulic lifters and AMC heads,45,000 miles so far doing 70 mph pulling a small boat, 20 mpg with dual 40mm Kadron/Solexes and SVDA distributer. It's never run hot in the even in the middle of a GA summer- makes great power. My.02.

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:23 am

CessnaJon wrote: I don't understand why some go to such great lengths to put a type 1 in a late bay-

I think people make Big Conclusions based on little personal experience.

I got my half million miles of factory dual carb Type 4 engine out on the highways, I loved it! No breakdowns! 70-75! No overheating! Happy valves! Cost per mile - cheap!

Drove my factory fuel injected bus two itineraries so far. I love it! No breakdowns! 70-75! No overheating! Valves are happy! Cost per mile - cheap!

So I have decided to do an itinerary with a Type 1 singleport bus this summer. It drove across the country last fall just fine! Overheated like hell! Had to pull the heads! Dumb mistake by PO's machinist! Used junk head are now working fine! 60-65! No overheating! Happy valves!

Big Conclusion? Sure. Don't make dumb mistakes and blame the engineering.
Colin :P

Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:16 am

In your pic of the doghouse oil cooler; you say to get the "hoover bit". Are you referring to the 2 piece slant tin joined by a rubber seal? The pieces that go thru firewall tin on top of the engine?

Your pic ,( looks like to me) is the thermostat bracket. Just checking, don't want to miss a critical piece. thanx

Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:50 am

donemoto wrote: In your pic of the doghouse oil cooler; you say to get the "hoover bit". thanx

It's a metal piece that fills an open air gap at the base of the shroud.

- Andrew in Austin, TX -

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:12 am

thanx.

Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:08 am

I like my T-4 but am keeping an eye on this thread in case the eventual rebuild is cost-prohibitive. I suspect T-1 parts will available long after the last T-4 is but to rest.

Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:20 pm

merlinj79 wrote: I like my T-4 but am keeping an eye on this thread in case the eventual rebuild is cost-prohibitive. I suspect T-1 parts will available long after the last T-4 is but to rest.

I feel the same way.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:12 am

OK. I'm getting ready to put a clutch into my 1600 engine .

I've read most of posts about clutch pressure plates interchange; but am still a little unsure of what Pressure plate I need to go into my 1978 Bus. One post said any 200mm clutch parts will fit.

Is this true?

I have a 9 spring pressure plate with the 3 finger prongs holding a ring. Is this compatible with the late 1978 Bus throw-out bearing?

Would rather have the standard late finger pressure plate without ring; but, I don't have one.

Please advise. thanx

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:51 am

Jake Raby wrote:

I have a Porsche 915, 5 speed and a 220HP, 2.8 liter Type 4 with PEFI in my 68 double cab that used to have a "type 1 based" engine in it.. 5K miles in just a few months, 27 MPG running 75MPH and my head temps never even hit 325 climbing a 6% grade thats 5 miles long at 75 MPH at less than 3.2K RPM in 5th gear on the hottest day we had last July, which was about 98F.

DAMN, Jake. :lol:

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:10 am

Amskeptic wrote: CessnaJon wrote: I don't understand why some go to such great lengths to put a type 1 in a late bay-

I think people make Big Conclusions based on little personal experience.

I got my half million miles of factory dual carb Type 4 engine out on the highways, I loved it! No breakdowns! 70-75! No overheating! Happy valves! Cost per mile - cheap!

Drove my factory fuel injected bus two itineraries so far. I love it! No breakdowns! 70-75! No overheating! Valves are happy! Cost per mile - cheap!

So I have decided to do an itinerary with a Type 1 singleport bus this summer. It drove across the country last fall just fine! Overheated like hell! Had to pull the heads! Dumb mistake by PO's machinist! Used junk head are now working fine! 60-65! No overheating! Happy valves!

Big Conclusion? Sure. Don't make dumb mistakes and blame the engineering.
Colin :P

My conclusion is that if you want to drive at 60mph then install a type 1 in a late bus. If you want to drive 70-75 Mph then keep the type 4.

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:34 am

donemoto wrote: OK. I'm getting ready to put a clutch into my 1600 engine .

I've read most of posts about clutch pressure plates interchange; but am still a little unsure of what Pressure plate I need to go into my 1978 Bus. One post said any 200mm clutch parts will fit.

Is this true?

I have a 9 spring pressure plate with the 3 finger prongs holding a ring. Is this compatible with the late 1978 Bus throw-out bearing?

Would rather have the standard late finger pressure plate without ring; but, I don't have one.

Please advise. thanx
AFAIK the 200mm works, but the one with the ring definitely isn't compatible with the 78 throwout bearing.