TheSamba.com :: View topic - Did i damage my vanagon auto transmission by overfilling?

Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:20 am

Here is the story. Finished some work on my engine/trans and re-installed, topped up atf as i had it drained, drove a few times running fine. Parked and checked atf while warm-seemed a little low. Added too much, saw a small puddle under van later that day but couldn't find where it was coming from. Started van and would not drive in gear as if too much fluid preventing it, drained a bunch of fluid from dipstick tube. Checked again, now too low, added a bit, then it moved. Moved but revving way too high to get going. Drove 1/2 block but didn't feel right so i backed it up on ramps then checked fluid again, reading high. Drained more out and re-started, now i get a loud blowing air noise under my trans pan. Also to note, the threads on the dipstick tube nut are now cracked so i will need to find a new tube. Is my trans shot? Did i cause damage from overfilling even though i did not drive much? Could the pan be leaking making the air noise? I don't really want to pull my trans again after all my work so i am looking for other answers or things to check with it in place before removing trans or trans/engine. Appreciate any help as i am a bit stressed about this now.

Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:29 am

There is a good chance you blew out some seals. My brother used to work at a transmission shop and a good portion of his repairs were on auto trannies that had been run low or over filled. Question for you. How are you checking the level? Are you doing it on level ground,warmed up,and in neutral?

Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:28 am

Usually all that happens when your overfill is that it will blow the extra out the vent. It may also create some extra heat which could cause damage if run long enough. Not sure how you would blow a seal from having the tiny increase in pressure you would see from having extra fluid, but then if the vent were clogged, all bets are off.

Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:43 am

Explain the "Orientation" of the van while it is up on ramps and you are checking it?
there are figures for a complete(drained TC) and a drain & change fluid fill.
remove the pan, replace the tube nut and have a competant welder put a propper drain in the opposite side trans pan blank.

cee wrote: Drove 1/2 block but didn't feel right so i backed it up on ramps then checked fluid again, reading high. Drained more out and re-started, now i get a loud blowing air noise under my trans pan. Also to note, the threads on the dipstick tube nut are now cracked so i will need to find a new tube. .

Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:32 pm

Talked to a good shop in my area that thinks the seal between transmission and final drive probably blew out causing a pressure loss, making the air noise. I will check my final drive oil for atf fluid to confirm this. I am not sure how i would get a new nut that is like this one on the tube as they don't seem too common, i guess i would have to cut off the ferrule as well to replace the nut-I will look for one ( if you have any ideas let me know please). the rear wheels were on ramps last time i checked the fluid which would raise the back end about a foot so i could slide under-just the standard vehicle ramps. I thought all that would happen is it should blow out the vent as well, but after talking to this shop i am wondering if the additional fluid pressured up the system more causing the "damage to transmission can result from overfilling" as bentley manual states. I have found an 89 vanagon with an auto transmission that is being parted out as the engine is not running that i am going to get a price on. Sound like my options will be to pull trans i have, replace this seal or seals (if i can find) or buy this used supposedly running before the engine died transmission. I understand that audi 5000 automatics use the same transmission. As a side not i just painted the transmission and replaced the final drive seals before i re-installed. I think i goofed by adding too much atf too quick and wrecked the seal so a bit of work to do now. First times checking were on level ground warmed up from idling not driving, next time was after driving 1/2 block with back end on ramps in park.

Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:07 am

Took it for a drive on the highway going about 110 km/hr shifting good now. Got back to city speed and started to shift funny with high revving. Got home and found smoke billowing out of torque converter. I don't know what is going on? I still have the leak at the tube fitting for the pan so i picked up a good audi 5000 fitting which i am going to cut off and weld to my dipstick tube and re-install. Could loosing this pressure cause the valves not to move the fluid properly? Or could my level still be too high? I drew some gear oil out of final drive and did not see any red atf so i think my seal might be okay. Thanks for any input.

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:23 pm

The ATF level needs to be checked hot and with the engine idling in neutral. Sounds like you have worse problems though. Maybe you need to call a shop that specializes in working on these trannies.

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:28 pm

When an automatic is overfilled, it will cause the fluid to become airated. The air bubbles suspended in the fluid cause all sorts of symptoms, but like Dan stated, worse case it would probably come out the vent. There is a springloaded check ball that keeps the torque convertor full when the engine is off. Probably coincidence. How much fluid did you start with? 3 quarts on a service seems about correct from memory.

Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:50 am

Wildthings-Do you know if any transmission shop can rebuild this if i remove it to save some cost? Or do i need a shop that specializes in VW transmission rebuilds? There are several transmission shops in the city i might call today.
I removed the transmission pan yesterday to get the dipstick tube off with the broken nut and tried to catch all the fluid-looked like about 2.5 litres once i poured it in an old 4 litre jug. A bit of a burnt smell which i understand can mean friction problems. I am getting the dipstick tube with a good nut from an audi 5000 straightened to the shape of my vanagon tube by a friend then i will re-install in the pan and that should take care of that leak. My next step will probably be to fill with the exact amount of fluid as per bently's procedure then get someone to watch for smoke and take for a drive. I am hoping the leak from the dipstick fitting was causing a pressure loss and maybe caused my overheating issue.
Anybody ever re-build one of these transmissions themselves?
I should mention that the engine is freshly installed, and the transmission has over 300000 km on it as far as i know.

Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:09 am

An automatic rebuild should include a rebuilt torque convertor. There are also seals under the govenor that see automatic fluid along with the back to back seals on both ends. There is also a measurement that needs to be made to shim between the automatic section and the diff. I would be inclined to have the shop overhaul the entire assembly, not just the automatic section. It might save money, but I see threads here where someone did only half the job and now they are having a problem related possibly to the work that was not done. Add a shop as a 3 rd party and there can be a lot of finger pointing.

The dipstick tube leak would be considered passive and until all the fluid leaked out, would not affect pressure. There was a member here, that completely documented the overhaul of an automatic section including pictures. If you can be neat, clean, organized, and have some mechanical skills, they can be done at home. Short of air tests on the reassembly, you won't know if you did it correctly unfortunately until you have it reinstalled. A reputable rebuilder should have an automatic transmission dyno. Don't forget the cooler/exchanger if still fitted. They will fail internally and you would be back to square one.

Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:59 am

On the left coast there are a lot of shops that rebuild these units and in my experience shipping isn't all that costly. Where are you located. I am sure that German Transaxle in Bend does them, and think that Long Enterprises does them as well. There are many others.

Never rebuilt an 010, but have done the automatic section on an older 003. Pretty much a piece of cake. You will want to have all the seals in the final drive section done while you are at it. You might ask the shop to evaluate the bearings in the final section to learn whether they need replacement or not. I am not big on having these bearings messed with if not necessary. I had the bearings on my '91 redone just because I was having the auto section worked on, and the new bearings failed not long afterwards and ruined the housing.

Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:03 pm

I am in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I have contacted van wonder in Vancouver, BC that quoted me a about $800 cdn to rebuild the transmission parts, and torque converter seal, and seal between final drive. I just did the final drive seals before i put in. I guess i will see how it goes when it is put back together, and if it is still messed up i will get it to vancouver which is about 8 hours away for a rebuild as i don't really know if one of the many transmission shops here will do a good job. One i contacted said they had probably done one at some time and it would be 500 to 1100 cdn.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:21 am

Did the reseal coincide with the problems?

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:00 am

By reseal do you mean the dipstick tube leaking? I didn't get the smoke problem until i overfilled, drained by loosening dipstick tube twice and wrecking the fitting causing the leak, and didn't have the high revving problem to get moving until i had overfilled. The revving high to get the van moving seems to coincide with being overfilled. Anyone know if all transmission shops are the same? Do they know about rebuild all transmissions? and do they all test on a tester after rebuild to make sure it works properly, or just replace seals/springs then put back together and send it out? I have never had an automatic transmission job done but if they all can do the work i might get it looked at here.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:40 am

I was referring to the back to back seals on the rear of the differential. How far did it run after replacing those seals?

As it relates to transmission repair shops. This unit was very common in VW's and Audi's. Most of the local transmission shops around here do not have a test stand. I would want to be sure the shop has done one before.

I ask about when the replacement of the seals, because there are some tasks you need to pay attention to. You need to measure the clearance between the auto section and the differential and shim accordingly. Reusing the original shims may not always work out. The turbine shaft has "rings" that can get hung up during the mating process and getting the torque converter to seat on the stator support, turbine shaft and pump shaft can also be a little tricky.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:29 am

You might talk to Vince at Basco. Southside and a good guy!

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:58 am

I talked to basco they seem okay, but they figured the seal between the transmission and final drive was gone causing a pressure loss. I asked how much to fix and they quoted me 1200 cdn which is more than i can invest at the moment. Maybe less if i remove myself.
Sorry for the confusion i did not do the back to back to seals on the transmission, i did the final drive flange seals when i did the cv joints. No work done on the transmission itself.
I sucked up a bit of gear oil from the final drive to see if there was any red in it and found none, but i don't know if this really proves the seal is intact between the final drive and transmission. According to bently the final drive level being low or atf being high could indicate the seal leak.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:41 am

Quote: but they figured the seal between the transmission and final drive was gone causing a pressure loss.

I do not think the two lip seals between the automatic and diff section are under pressure.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:28 pm

This is what one guy at Basco told me they would be replacing if there was atf in the final drive oil section-i don't think there is. After explaining how i overfilled then started having problems, i understood there response to mean that somehow adding too much fluid-even though i did not drive it far-had overpressured this seal and was causing the problem. I don't know if they were quoting for a transmission rebuild or just to do the back to back seals. In any case i can't spend that at the moment. I have the dipstick tube and pan ready to go back on, then off for a test drive with someone watching the torque converter in the backseat and maybe bring the temp. gun to check if it is getting too hot. Bently manual says fluid should be about 60 deg after warmup. I hope it works out. I thought that if an automatic transmission required a rebuild you would start experiencing major malfunctions like losing reverse, or other gear speeds before it totally quit working.

Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:24 am

Thinking about it more, and still haven't went for the test drive since fixing the dipstick tube leak and re-filling the AT to proper level, it seems like a torque converter problem. The symptoms such as burnt smelling fluid, and revving before moving all seem to be torque converter failure related. The van went into gears fine when i was shifting through while warming up the other day. I will take it for a drive today. Vancafe has torque converters for 185 with core return or i can go pull one from a 1984 audi at the wreckers which will be a bit of work and it could be worn?